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May 1st, 2012
10:55 AM ET
Seriously? Doctors say they're underpaidAnthony Youn, M.D., is a plastic surgeon in metro Detroit. He is the author of “In Stitches,” a humorous memoir about growing up Asian American and becoming a doctor.
But many other physicians are not as satisfied - a recent study by Medscape revealed that 49% of doctors believe they're not fairly compensated. Of primary care physicians, this percentage increases to 54%. It’s no myth that doctors are some of the highest paid professionals in the country. So why are they complaining? It’s likely because of situations like Dr. Peterson’s. I was the on-call plastic surgery resident one night when a 42-year-old man - let’s call him Dave - was brought into the hospital at 3 a.m. He had fallen off a roof while intoxicated. Dave broke several bones in his face and shattered his lower leg. I stumbled out of bed and met Dr. Peterson in the ER, where we spent the next three hours assessing Dave’s injuries and repairing his lacerations. Five days later Dr. Peterson and I performed an eight-hour operation, reconstructing his broken facial bones and performing a muscle transfer to help heal his fractured legs. For the next two months, we visited Dave in the hospital each and every day, changing his bandages and making sure he healed properly. Not once did Dave thank Dr. Peterson for his care. Instead, Dave took more than $3,000 from him. Close scrutiny Quite possibly no other occupation in the country receives such attention regarding the income its members receive. And that’s not a new trend - more than 70% of respondents of a survey published in the 1985 American Journal of Public Health believed doctors were overpaid. The Medscape survey found the average physician compensation now ranges from a high of $315,000 for orthopedic surgeons to a low of $156,000 for pediatricians. Sounds pretty good right? Consider that physicians must complete at least four years of college, four years of medical school, and between three to eight years of residency training prior to becoming a real, practicing doctor. Many physicians don’t start earning “doctor-level” salaries until they are well into their 30s. A 2009 survey by U.S. News found the typical medical student graduated with $141,132 in debt. The graduates of some schools averaged more than $200,000 in loans. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average computer and information system manager earns $125,660 per year. The average lawyer makes $130,490 per year. Orthodontists take home $204,670. The New York Times recently reported the average base pay for managing directors at Morgan Stanley is $400,000. At Goldman Sachs, it’s $600,000. The average salary of an NFL player is $1.9 million. NBA players average $5.15 million per year. Just for putting a ball in a hoop. When you consider these numbers, the thought of pediatricians making $156,000 a year doesn’t seem unreasonable. They often see 50 patients per day, answer our calls at all hours, and keep our kids healthy. What about critical care physicians? They average $240,000 a year, but are responsible for keeping the sickest of us alive. One-quarter of critical care physicians spend more than 65 hours per week with their patients, not including time doing paperwork. Unlike most other professions, there is a ceiling to what most doctors can earn. Physician compensation is tightly controlled by the government and insurance companies. Medicine is also the only profession where its members are required to sometimes work for free. No return on investment Which brings us back to Dave. Three months later, I accompanied Dr. Peterson in his clinic to see Dave for a follow-up appointment. Dr. Peterson seemed a bit distracted. At the end of the visit I found out why. “I’m glad you’re doing so well, Dave,” said Dr. Peterson. “Yeah, I’m really happy with how things have turned out,” he replied. “So Dave, this is a little awkward for me, but I need to ask you something. Two weeks ago your insurance company sent you a check for $3,200 to forward to me for all my surgical and office fees.” “Yeah, so?” “Well, um,” Dr. Peterson stuttered. “We never received it from you.” “No, you didn’t. I cashed it and spent it.” “Dave, why would you do that?” “I figured you’re a rich doctor. I need the money more than you.” What do you think? Are doctors being underpaid? Tell us in the comments below. soundoff (15,183 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 Next »Leave a Reply to The OTHER doctor
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Full disclosure: I have no complaints about how much I make.
The doctors run the healthcare system and then they complain about how much money that they make? The reason that the insurance companies are so embedded in the healthcare system is because doctors do not want any other system. The doctors look at Canada and say "I do not want to work for government" and so they do everything in their power to block universal healthcare like Canada has. If Dr. Petersen practiced medicine in Canada, he would not have to worry about the check going to the wrong person because everyone receives medical care and the whole health insurance industry has been replaced by the government health services.
The doctors ultimately determine how many doctors get produced in this country by restriction in medical schools and internships. Many qualified people get turned away from medical schools because the supply of doctors is restricted. This restriction insure a permanent shortage of doctors and allow the doctors to earn high income. Doctors complain about having to work long hours because of the shortage of doctors that the doctors cause. Only doctors can "practice" medicine because of laws that the doctors are licensed by the government. Doctors are a government enforced monopoly. If doctors want to change the current medical system, they are the only ones with the real power to do so.
docs run the healthcare system? are you crazy? we're one of the few workforces without a union. we are beholden to insurers, hospitals, our state medical boards, medicare and our patients. docs have almost NO voice to "run" the system. sure, we could get involved more in politics, government and healthcare administration, but that would take away from time spent with patients.
You know that states have laws on doctors.
Ones specifically restricting them from forming unions or having much of a force.
Doctors control stuff? How 'bout being tied, gagged, and forced to bend to the government's and insurance companies' will much of the time?
Wow. Pretty dumb.
C S-
I've never responded to any message board before, but was baffled by how little you understand about our healthcare system. You are a prime example of why I'm glad articles like this can be used to educate those who claim to understand a system when they do not. Thanks for bringing this up so that we can learn about how our healthcare system is allocated and who holds the purse strings.
The government restricts residency programs. There is not enough funding to train more physicians. The road to be coming a physician is expensive and time consuming. Physicians are one of the only professions who are rendered pay months after the service was rendered for a fraction of the cost. When people go into a restaurant and leave without paying, it's called dining and dashing and it is illegal. When a person without insurance goes to the ED for treatment, the physician and the hospital absorb the cost. Insurance companies pass the cost to the good people who actually seek out and pay for insurance.
I spent my time in college, med school, and residency studying. Not smoking pot, not sleeping until 2 pm and skipping classes, not getting drunk continuously, not coming to class in sweats/ hungover, not taking easy classes that you don't even have to show up for to pass, not skipping college altogether to get stoned and live in mom's basement. I studied and pushed myself EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE MINUTE. I came to class on time, ready with questions, payed attention, etc, etc. I am a successful HOSPITALIST spending most of my time practicing intensive care. I save lives every week. That's right- if I am not sharp there would be people going to the morgue every week that I save. I save them because I studied all of those years, I learned how to learn, I learned how to not give up. I learned to think independently/ aggressively/ out of the box. You think about that when your family member is in intensive care. Hopefully they will have someone like me. I am happy with my salary of $ 225 k and I think I am worth it.
CS your clueless!
Doctors don't run the healthcare system. Insurance companies strangle it.
Doctors don't "run" the healthcare system. It is run by insurance companies and administrators, there are no doctors unions. Medicare sets payment rates and insurance companies pay a fraction or peg their rates to the Medicare rates, which are pretty low. Perhaps in the 50's doctors 'run' the system.
Steve: you say, "I save lives every week. That's right- if I am not sharp there would be people going to the morgue every week that I save. I save them because I studied all of those years, I learned how to learn, I learned how to not give up. I learned to think independently/ aggressively/ out of the box. You think about that when your family member is in intensive care."
Well, Steve – What you learned was how to be incredibly narcissistic. YOU save those lives? How about the Nurses, who often have B.S. degrees, some M.S. degrees, and work long hours? Don't you think they have something to do with it? How about the Medical Laboratory staff with B.S. degrees, M.S. degrees and Ph.D.s, who provide you a myriad of diagnostic data (which are critical)? How about your Pharmacists who have Pham.D. doctorate degrees that work long hours and keep your prescriptions in order (so you don't mess up); how many times has a pharmacist saved your butt? What about the people that built and maintain that HOSPITAL you work in? Did you design the engineering and architecture of that hospital or was that someone else.
The fact is, doctors like you believe they are God, with narcissism on overdrive. The world revolves around you. The world is saved by you. Patients lives are saved by you (and these other people have not much to do with it, so they shouldn't be mentioned).
Maybe all of these college educated laboratory scientis, some of whom have Ph.D.'s in Microbiology and Immunohematology were the ones you're referring to that "partied" and "smoked weed?" Maybe the Pharmacists with doctorate degrees in neuropharmacology were "goofing off" when you were studying?
Doctors are so self-absorbed, it's no wonder you take FULL credit for saving those lives. Incredible. Your education didn't teach you anything about the struggle of others. How many lives would you save if it weren't for the scientists that researched the diagnostic tests your hospital uses? Those were Ph.D's that came up with those tests, not you. How many lives would you have saved without the medications at your disposal. Those were Ph.D.s and Pharm.D.s that researched those medications, not you. How many lives would you save without anyone else? Why did you take credit? Because doctors are narcissistic blow hards.
Brian-
I'm not sure who hurt you or why you are so angry, but the fact is that especially in the MICU the decisions rest with the physicians in charge. No doubt it is an incredible team effort and every piece of the team is vital to making sure that patients have the best possible outcome, but when it comes to who makes the final call it is up to the physicians in charge. Most of the procedures are physician lead in the ICU. I bet you anything Steve doesn't think he is God, because the ICU will teach you more than anywhere about the fragility of life. I also did not interpret Steve as saying that ONLY HE CAN SAVE LIVES. He knows he is a piece in the puzzle, and that all involved are dedicated to service and sacrifice.
Wow CS....you really know nothing abut what is going on in the business of medicine...
I read an interesting article recently that pointed out the fact that there are thousands of foriegn trained doctors that are unable to work in the US due to their lack of ability to obtain a residency. The number of available residency posistions is set my the U.S. Congress. If all the qualified applicants were able to obtain positions the doctor shortage would be eliminated. I am sure that many would be happy to work for $150,000 a year.
Bravo,
The AMA is the most powerful lobby in Washington. They control the supply of physicians to keep the salaries artificially high. Flood the market with physicians (as they do in other professions (nurses, for example) and the salaries will come down.
I have over 12 years of education – BBA, MBA, Doctorate, MS in computer science and still do not earn what a physician makes.
Finally, after four years of medical school, you get paid about $40,000 a year to learn your craft. This is the median salary of a household in the United States.
Flood the market with all those highly qualified students who got rejected from medical school – this will increase the supply and reduce the demand for highly compensated doctors
Steve- Note the capital "S".
For such an educate man, I'm surprised in your rational. You are using a supply/demand theory that is not applicable. Flooding the market with more physicians will improve wait times to see a physicians, but does not effect costs. You just have more doctors to pay. Your premise is that doctors set their rates in accordance to demand. This is wrong logic unless you are discussing a small portion of concierge medicine. If improving your access to medical care, then yes you are correct. However, diluting the population will certainly decrease the quality of the product.
Your just clueless .....
I agree with Brian... It is amazing how highly doctors think of themselves and how little they appreciate the help of the other very important members of the medical team... It is also amazing how they think they have the only job that can impact society in a positive way... You will have to forgive me if I don't think the $200k+ is insufficient for your contributions...
I don't agree with how this article seeks to justify higher salaries for doctors by comparing them, at face value, with the salaries of professional athletes... I am not saying that the current salaries of professional athletes are 100% justified, however, one does need to consider the millions of people that find enjoyment from watching professional sports before stating that their salaries are higher than the contributions provided to society...
This is for "Seriously?"
Steve used " I " fifteen times in his self congratulatory pat on the back. He didn't call anyone else out in the credit for saving lives. MANY people are involved in saving a life in the hospital. Those are fine professionals and even have doctorate degrees and post-doc fellowships (e.g., immunohematology and pharmacology, to name a couple).
No one hurt me, and I'm not angy. I'm just extending credit where it is due – and you don't seem to like that.
On the other hand, you seem to come ot the defense and aid of medical doctors without any consideration for the other fine medical professionals that comprise the health care system and lend to saved lives. Have you considered the Ph.D. researcher that worked her whole professional life developing the medications Steve uses to save those lives? She a doctor, went to school 10+ years and you dismiss her wholesale. Did Steve make his own drugs?
With you being so smitten with medical doctors, I should say to you, "I don't know what has you so brainwashed, but some doctor somewhere must have loved-you-long-time, if you know what I mean." That is, you're simply convinced doctors are the center of the universe and should use the term " I " fifteen times in a small paragraph while praising their "own" work.
The fact is, medical doctors and their patrons and pawns like you contribute to their disproportionate pay and they get that pay largely because doctors take credit for EVERYTHING. I'd like to see a doctor operate as an Internal Medcine doctor (like Steve) without a laboratory – without x-ray imaging – without a medications – without running water – without medical supplies of anykind. Many folks deserve credit and PAY for helping save those lives.
Brian-
That was impressive. I like how you rant about others narcissism and then turn the conversation into something about yourself. No where above was any one discussing the fact that Doctors don't appreciate their team. You changed the conversation in a manner that makes me feel you are an unappreciated and bitter PhD. If that is the case, then I certainly appreciate what you do and would defend you as well. PhDs certainly do very well in the marketplace. Certainly the patents on the medications and tests you described are lucrative. I do not begrudge their fortune in creating such useful items. The reality though is that most of those advancements were in conjunction with researching medical doctors. I'm hoping you do not have a PhD because to somehow imply that some doctor has "loved-me-long-time" completely devalues your points and makes you look foolish. I love doctors because I work with many. In fact, most of the docs I work with work in the mission field. Without labs, without xrays, without nurses. They are quite able to perform their craft without these things. Without high pay and with amazing gratefulness of those they serve. Imagine that???
Steve,
Call me when you have to wake up at 2 am to go in to fix the broken arm of a disgusting animal who stole a car and while running from the police got into a car accident. I respect all the education you have. In fact I studied Electrical Engineering as an undergrad at one of the top programs in the country; but what you guys do doesn't even compare to what a physician does on daily (nightly?) basis.
we're "paid" during our residency, sure. if you consider the fact that we work an average of 80 hours per week, and the average resident salary is 40k, it comes out to about 10.50 an hour. and that's BEFORE taxes and student loan payments. its less "earning" and more "surviving". my babysitter makes more than that...
did anyone put a gun to your head and force you to become a doctor? Did you think you wouldnt have to sacrifice anything in the beginning to get to where you were going or did you expect everything to be handed to you because you were in med school? High prices are paid to reap the rewards later on in your career.
I'm sure this didn't occur to you, but considering doctors are among the most intelligent people in the general population, if they were only interested in money, they EASILY could have pursued investment banking, insurance, law, business, etc.... The point that you are unequipped to understand is that relative to their peers in other professions, they are underpaid. YOU are not their peer.
Oh, bummer! Then why didn't you consider your "poverty" during residency before having kids to compound it? Oh, that's right, you wanted to be a doctor to make all that money, but it didn't come soon enough. Please! You make your own choices. You chose to go to medical school and incur all of that debt. You chose your residency. You chose to live whatever lifestyle you lived while in residency. You created whatever debt you have with the choices you, yourself, have made. Stop complaining about it. Whatever debt you have is of your own making. Doctors are generally well-paid, especially when you consider the average FAMILY income in the US is $49,445 (2011).
Mojefa, the "average" family income is $49k because the average person's education tops out at High School and is not qualified or smart enough for a higher paying job.
Each of us is worth what the market will pay; no more and no less. Physicians choose to accept insurance, medicare / medicaid and their schedules of fees.
Don't like what they pay? Then only treat cash patients and charge as much as they will pay.
It's silly to bring professional athletes into this conversation. That only obfuscates the real issues.
It's called regulations.
If one doesn't conform to standards set by regulating bodies, one will find it hard to continue to practice.
Many practicing physicians are now forced to join larger organizations to survive, which are (guess what?) heavily regulated and (usually) follow insurance plans.
Once regulation is involved, arguments of free market go out the window.
That a great thought but the market is fixed. You can charge what you want but the government forces to treat people. EMTALA.
The Internist is correct. Doc are paid for volume. High quality is not compatable with high volume. My first job as a physician was in a longstanding clinic with 50 year old charts. The notes included the amount charged. Fifty years ago an office call was three to five dollars. The clinic had one employee and health insurance was not available at that time in that community. Good care was delivered at a fraction of the cost (even allowing for inflation) because there was no middleman – the insurance company and there was virtually no threat of a malpractice lawsuit. The system is broken. It will fail believe me. The problem in a nutshell is this... Health insurance is a failed socialist experiment. Only a return to a true free market approach along with an increase in the supply of providers will solve the problem. The trouble is, it won't happen. Those making the rules/laws have too much at stake (Big insurance, Big hospital systems, AMA, Lawyers, Big Pharma...) There are too many pigs at the trough.
And when someone experiences a catastrophic illness or accident, will the doctors in the "free agent" new world provide services that someone can afford? I doubt it. That's why we have insurance companies, as corrupt and flawed as they are.
Nonsense and more nonsense. EVERY profession believes they deserve more money. In the legacy carrier days, airline pilots claimed they were underpaid with their $300k and $400k salaries (work 12 days a month watching the autopilot).
Teachers will tell you they went to school getting their 4 year, masters and sometimes Ph.D only to get $50-$60 a year.
Remember doctors, unless you kill a LOT of people, you have complete security. You don't get laid off.
Using YOUR figures, doctors make between $150,000 to $315,000 a year. So $225,000 or so on the average.
American's average $49,000 in household income in 2011.
Comparing your income to sports stars and financial people on Wall Street is lame. It's not a reasonable comparison.
Be glad you make so much money. You're in the top 1% of earners in America.
until you factory in student loan repayment (180k average) and taxes (30%, and no deductions if you are paid employee – most of us can't even deduct our student loan interest)
AARON, file your taxes correctly and problem solved.
Micky2006....unfortunately he did file taxes right. limited deductions..2% on W2 since most of us are employed now. And you can not deduct school loan interest if making over 160,000 combined. If your spouse is a physician and loans approach 500,000 then interest makes up most of your income. Now if parents paid for school....a different story. Still same issues with late start into savings and family.
But some of the other comparisons are valid. In general, it looks like comparing doctors to directors in other industries is not uncommon. If you look at my industry (engineering), you've got senior engineers, PhD's, and directors in the $150k to $300k range. I would expect doctors with the same amount of experience to be AT LEAST at that level, considering the malpractice insurance they must carry (nobody's going to sue me if I mess up an experiment) and the level of work they do.
Frankly, it appears to be quite a crappy job to have considering all of the work involved and the salary. I know the typical American makes a lot less, but the typical American DOES a lot less. Most of my family members are blue or pink collar workers, and they wouldn't think about complaining a single bit about a doctor making $225k per year. Not when they are pushing paper or loading lumber.
Seriously? How much do your nurses make? 50k on average? For working the same hours – most times even moreso. For having the same on-call rotation, making 1/3 of the money but absorbing 100% of the flak from patients. For learning as much, and most time MORESO than the physician.
The problem is not how "little" physicians make, but how much more other professions make for contributing less. RN's do just as much as MD's and waver right at the functionally unemployed line since they make 1/3 less – and most pick up extra jobs just to make ends meet.
Cry me a river.
hahahaha I'm guessing you're a nurse eh? What a joke of a profession. You think wiping asses is worth the same pay as someone who went to medical school, sacrificed their 20s, and assumed $200k in debt? I can only assume you're joking, because nurses know jack, and theres a reason for that, they didn't go to school to learn how to be a doctor! Same on-call schedule? Please, you work 40 hours and then scream for overtime. Doctors on average work 60 hours a week. Same flak from patients? Ya, when they want their ass scratched they come to you, otherwise thy don't sue nurses, they sue doctors.
Nurses and PA's make 6 figures easy.
And that's coming just out of school.
Doctors are usually stuck as residents and fellows, making $40-50k per year for up to 7-8 years. AFTER med school and college.
the point about someone giving up their 20s and starting with 150K in debt is quite valid. We don't get to make anything close to a reasonable salary until approximately 10 years later than anyone else who goes to college, and then you have essentially 2 mortgages (school loans and home loan) that you're burdened with. Top that with working long hours for many people that don't really appreciate what you do for them. yeah, and the person that said that a nurse is just the same as a doctor? Yeah, have a nurse take out your spleen at three in the morning after a gunshot wound to the belly. See how well that goes for you.
The same hours? Really? I know lots of great nurses but none of them work 6am to 9pm and take call with out pay. I'll give them credit where credit is due. Thier jobs are incredibly difficult and they deserve every dime them make. Many deserve more. But as "For learning as much or more then Doctors"???? Wow!!! If they can learn as much in 2-4 years of nursing school than a Doctor can learn in 11 years of education then they really should be paid profession athlete pay.
Again. RNs do a difficult often thankless job, but when a patient has congestive heart failure, chronic kidney disease, and COPD, where treating one condition will worsen another is it really an RN you want trying to find the right balanced treatment. You are clueless about medicine.
Here's an experiment, in your fantasy world hospital, why dont you get rid of all the doctors and replace them with RNs. Lets see how many patients lives your needlessly lose your first day.
Let's break this down.
Nurses: Nursing model, two year degree to start, joke of a degree (DNP? Really?). These people learn, on the whole, algorithms which they use to treat. If a patient doesn't fit into that algorithm, they can't diagnose.
Speaking of diagnosis...
Doctors (M.D.s and D.O.s): Medical model and osteopathic model, respectively. They are trained in the art of diagnosis. They know the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of the drugs they prescribe, the pathophysiology of the diseases they treat, and the nuances thereof. They receive eight times the schooling, ten times as much training in hours alone (I know nurses have tried to take over the word 'residency'. Seriously, guys? Napoleon complex much?), and upwards of double the debt.
But you're right. Nurses are just as good as doctors. That's why Nurses do neurosurgery. That's why they'll be the ones putting their training in radiological oncology to good use by nuking your tumor today. They'll be the ones repairing that cornea or removing the cataract. They'll treat the gangrene.
Oh wait, nevermind, the guys doing that are the only guys qualified: the doctors.
Here's a good idea: Let's let Nurses run their own hospitals, staff them entirely with nurses, let them perform procedures, give them the same licensing exams as M.D.s (Columbia nurses had a failure rate on a watered down Step 1 of more than 50%). When patients start dying by the dozen in nurse-only hospitals, maybe we'll settle this inane argument once and for all.
Last I checked, nurses don't get paid to think, to diagnose, to make life-altering decisions. They do important work, no doupt, and that work requires skills and experience. But a ton of people can do that work well. And phlebotomy versus differential diagnosis skills??? Please. And I've never heard of a nurse work call hours, and when their shift is over, they do not stick around. Gone in a flash. No rounds, no lawsuits, no pressure from making life-or-death decisions every day. ...and many of them replaceable. yup, nurse get paid plenty.
speaking as a previous critical care nurse that worked 36 hrs a week making $65k, now in med school, learning absolutely much more information on the human body, genetics, medications, etc., to then graduate and work as resident for 80 hrs a week making 42K if I am lucky for the next 4 years. Not to mention my 250k in debt, that I chose to endure, so I could learn more to make a bigger difference in treating people, only to help people like yourself, that resent us.
Don't talk unless you know what you know. This is why people resent physicians because of ignorant comments that have no validity. Get it right.
It's simply ridiculous to say that $156,000 per year (an the lowest income) is being underpaid. Any family can live quite well with that money, just stop buying mansions and bmws, and the money will be more than enough.
Go back to statistics class.
That's average. Which means probably a good 20-25% make only 5 figures.
Which is very sad compensation for a pediatrician.
Mickey2006....do your math and look at the postings...... certain age group of doctors are buying mansions and BMWs. Not the ones posting here, which will likely be the doctor you see in the hospital..... SInce the ones buying the mansions and BMWs will be well in their mansions and BMWs or worse doing the unneeded testing and procedure they need to do to pay for the BMW and mansion......Good luck.
Thats great if you dont start in 250K in debt. When I graduate in two years I have a huge debt to pay off...sure I will make money eventually...but its going to take a good about of time to pay off that debt.
Dopey reasoning. If Bill Gates was limited to $100k salary and complained about it, would you say "stop whining, you can live on that?" You can't complain about your $25k salary for flipping burgers because that's all you can accomplish. People who accomplish more should get paid more. That's how it works.
Are doctors underpaid? Hell yes they are.
CS: everything you just said if facially incorrect. Go get a life, attempt to get into medical school. Do you know that doctors are not allowed to 'unionize' like other service employees? Thus, how would you suggest we go about changing the system? Many qualified people apply and get rejected...? Well, why don't they try again the next year? Face it, you're a punk without an education who expects things for free. Maybe if you worked a little bit in your life, you;d understand that.
I worked very hard to get to where I am. I deserve every $$$$$. Now can we all please focus on world peace?! 🙂 Go Dawgs!!!
Yes, doctors prepare a long time to practice and pay a lot of money for it. But everybody I know would be glad to make that much money. Comparing salaries with overpaid athletes and greedy execs is totally invalid.
Why is it invalid? You would rather spend money going to an NBA game than have someone ensure your health? You know nothing about it obviously, except the salary that comes with it... when you're 35!
Maybe Lebron can wake up at 3am to fix your child's broken arm? Or maybe he'll skip his son's baseball game to take care of you after you get in a car accident? You're right, it is 'invalid' to compare them, one sacrificed their loved ones to help you, the other sacrificed nothing.
Absolutely right.
Then again, those 2 show little for ethics.
So, very little's fair with them to start.
I've worked in the medical field in various capacities for 45 years now. My husband worked for 43 years in a paper mill. Call me stupid, but it always amazed me over these years when we'd compare medicine versus business. I could never understand why a man running a computer operated paper machine where he stood at a board and pushed buttons for rolls of paper got $30.00/hr plus benefits and if he "screwed up" he lost a roll of paper and cost the company some profits, but if a nurse making much less than that per hour "screws up" someone could die. Why are the service fields always paid the least? Again, call me stupid but I am willing to pay a little more for someone to save my life than to program my computer.
Not ProblemChild, that person would rather pay Lebron to make a few more dunks.
I hate to tell you this, Lyn, but just because a doctor is a doctor (or a nurse is a nurse) doesn't make their job more important than anyone else's. I'm in IT. Believe it or not, I make it possible for doctors and nurses to do their jobs in today's medical facilities. It's a job, just like anyone else's job. If they don't like it, or don't like the pay, then they can do something else. If they choose not to do something else, then they can stop complaining about it because that's what they, themselves, chose to do.
Teachers are the biggest whiners in regads to their pay. What makes them so special? Teachers dont deserve one dimes worth of pay increase.
If this is a significant problem, doctors can go to where the money is – Saudi Arabia and other rich oil nations. They are willing to pay.
Veggiedude. I do not know what you make per year but how about if i told you that it is too much. And next year I am paying you less. And the next year and the next year and the next year.
But then again with a name like veggiedude you probably dont work at all. You probably occupy some park somewhere sitting around doing nothing and crying about why you have less than those people who actually do work. Maybe if you cry load enough someone will take money from those greedy Doctors and give it to you. >>> Is that your career plan?<<<
Shawn, thank you. I couldn't have said it better.
My son is not a doctor, but instead he decided to becomea home remodlerer. He's been doing this for over eight years now, and still puts in on average 100 to 120 hours per week, and his annual incomme is less than $50,000. To top it all off should the home owner accidently scratch the new paint they expect him to come back by and do the touch up for free.
Doctors, lawyers, and all you other professionals should shut your damn mouths and enjoy your successes for every
So, he obviously was High School Valedictorian and an Ivy League graduate and simply CHOSE not to go to Med School? Think maybe he's a remodeler because that's the best he could do. And if he were paid $10k for doing that job, he'd be complaining and you would be agreeing with him. Instead, you're upset that someone smarter than him, who spent more time in school and did better than him, should make more money than him? Tough.
John Carr, So what you are saying is after 8 years of "Remodlerering" houses he makes less than 8 dollars an hour. I paid a guy $20 an hour to just repaint my house. Maybe that would be a good career move for your son.
120 hours a week? That's over 17 hours a day, 7 days a week. 50k a year for an average of 110 hours per week equals about $8.75 per hour. He either really loves what he does, including the complaining customers, or he needs his head examined (preferably by a doctor 🙂 You lost all credibility.
you've got to be kidding me!
You are comparing your idiot son who paints walls (that frankly a monkey can do) to a doctor who has spent years and years studying? I've seen lots of idiotic posts here, but this specially stands out
This article demonstrates how these "doctors " really treat all of us, like a complete fools. Are we suppose to be syphathetic a put his college bills??? First of all DON'T YOU EVER DOCTOR compare your job to a lawer's or IT tech work. People get sick most of the times, give births BY NATURE ( didn't they teach that at medical schools?), not because they DECIDED to get smart with the law or get the best OS system....second thing is that friend of yours, "poor" plastic surgen can send a bill to his patient, and, in case the patient as a complete imbecile and cashes money for his treatment, send him to collection. And the last: since you, doc, have "no complaints "about your personal income, STOP COMPLAINING! This is a sign of some psychological issue...or just a " support" gesture for your chorines.This system is so sick, that even the ones who suppose to cure others, are ill themselves .
You fuel the ignorant fire behind resenting the "hand that feeds you", remember that when you or a loved one is in critical need of treatment by the "oh, so overpaid" physicians. If it was easy or financially worth the hassle, everyone would be doctor.
Well Reader there is a reason your doctor treats you like a fool. Judging from your post you rant on incoherently making illogical arguments. I don't blame him for treating you like a fool.
You are a moron. Yes, people gave birth naturally at home for years, and also 1 in 3 babies died at home. Ever heard of VitK, probably in the hipster multivitamin you take to keep you closer to your chi, well we give that to babies in hospitals now, and guess what? THEY DONT BLEED OUT OF THEIR EARS ANY MORE! What, didn't know that? STFU
This is a very good argument!!! We should also not pay for food because we do not choose to be hungry, we should not pay for heat because we do not choose to be cold, we should not pay for haircuts because we do not choose for our hair to grow.
Reader: Pure gibberish. I'm sure if you have a point, it's wrong.
To all doctors lovers who insulted me personally: healing and curing should be a carefully chosen profession, based on love and care for people, not on desire to make good money and lavish lifestyle off people's misery. The reward should be based on appreciation by cured patients , not reimbursement for unnecessary treatments and testings for back covering. To all admires of the modern physicians: you have been used and abused for the personal gain by this greedy bunch.
Your aggressiveness shows how little you care about anything or anybody. Typical qualities for the new generation of MDs. My point was about the lack of control and choices we , all humans, have over nature , and a lot of times, health is reflection of the nature.. Medical care , which is being run as a business " for profit" is immoral. One doc ( DOCTOR Z) compared it with the barber shop" what you get is what you pay": I can only imagine what he does to his patients....
The book of Ecclesiasticus, also known as Sirach, has a good statement on God, physicians, and medicine. It reads:
Honor physicians for their services, for the Lord created them; for their gift of healing comes from the Most High, and they are rewarded by the king. The skill of physicians makes them distinguished, and in the presence of the great they are admired. The Lord created medicines out of the earth, and the sensible will not despise them. Was not water made sweet with a tree in order that its power might be known? And he gave skill to human beings that he might be glorified in his marvelous works. By them the physician heals and takes away pain; Then give the physician his place, for the Lord created him; do not let him leave you, for you need him. There may come a time when recovery lies in the hands of physicians, for they too pray to the Lord that he grant them success in diagnosis and in healing, for the sake of preserving life. He who sins against his Maker, will be defiant toward the physician (Sirach 38:1-15).
Doctors are absolutely underpaid and under appreciated. It's insane how one profession is always scrutinized for what our numerical salary has been estimated to deliver, because it's not all about the money!!!! I was a critical care nurse for 3 years, until I started medical school, not for the salary, but to be equipped with the best education and training so that I can make a difference in a strangers healthcare. It's not about the money, folks.
Going into medicine is not a "career choice", it's a "LIFE choice", and one that involves your entire family, friends, and significant other. Its the years that you sacrifice your health and your life, so that we can learn the utmost critical information to enable us to provide excellent, individualized treatment. Yet, we are the most resented profession??????
I can't wait to finish med school with 2 mortgages, one on my actual house and one for my degree, so that I can work as a resident making $25,000 less than I did as a critical care nurse working 36 hours a week. Oh yes, that's right! All so I can put myself at the mercy of individuals who detest us and think we owe them something, because we have M.D behind our names. It's appalling and unfortunate, especially when we are sued by the ones we treat? Absolutely baffling.
Being a doctor is not for financial gains, it's about doing something that fulfills your life beyond tangible objects, unlike material objects that everyone assimilates doctors are after.
Be thankful for the few that put themselves last, so they can put everyone else first.
Boo Hoo, I am over paid as well. Everyone thinks they are underpaid. Why no comparison to every other profession? Throwing money at education, as some have said teachers are underpaid as well, has produced nothing but over paid teachers and higher taxes, the quality of education has not changed one iota. Doctors also have plenty of opportunity to make money by testifying for insurance companies and defense lawyers as well. On a jury I sat on 4 years ago 3 doctors testified, and each was paid 5000 dollars (yes 5K each). Then there are BOTOX injections, MRI centers, and the list goes on. A hospital is the only place where you have hundreds of people making hat a president of a company makes. My understanding is a nurse working 60-80 hours per week can make up to 250K. I wish I had it so good. If you want to make money, get a job on Wall Street, and steal it like everyone else there.
You're not too bright, are you?
When you see the figures of doctor salary, remember this is before taxes and loan repayment. Now factor in kids, and having to pay for their college (we are too "rich" to qualify for financial aid), and trust me, that 150K doesn't stretch as far. I can also guarantee you, that none of the naysayers on this blog have stayed up studying all night, almost weekly for 12 years. With all do respect, we chose to do this to save your ass, but we also expect to be paid what we're due. Call me when you work 80 hours a week, do paperwork for someone who is trying to steal even more from you, and see patients that don't think you deserve to make as much as you do. It's funny, because if you are on medicaid and medicare, you should be thanking those who make more than 250K, cuz we just paid for your medical care. Yes, 150K is a lot on paper, but its earned. Call me when you sacrifice your entire youth, because you thought someday someone would be thankful for those hours spent miserably reading book after book. No one can argue against physician pay, unless the make medical school free or get rid of medicare. Your choice.
Please! You make your own choices, so don't use them as excuses to complain. Doctors are, generally, well-paid–and they more often than not have poor "bedside" manners because they don't consider (and aren't trained for) customer service, which is what it is. If you become a doctor, choose that career because that's what you've always dreamed of doing–not for the paycheck. Because if that's your motivation, I don't want to be your patient.
Poor doctors .... If live is so hard, don't have kids: it will help to "stretch" this " lousy" $ 150000.
You think doctors are underpaid or underappreciated? Try becoming a veterinarian, especially if you are a woman. I left the field (after 6 years pursuing it) because giving up the rest of my twenties and early thirties to start my career at 32+ wasn't worth it (especially since I wanted a family and stable home before 35, but hey, that's just me). Many when they get that far into it, can't just leave (they have too much invested). But I thought what would I get, 20-25 good years out of the profession before I peaked physically and mentally. Add the anti-social hours, ungrateful clients (you remember them the most), 100,000+ dollars in student loan debt, and a starting salary of about 30,000 (starting) to 50,000 (average) a year. Because of the same sort of bottleneck cited in the medical profession, I was likely not to be accepted to veterinary school on my first try, average is 2-4 tries (years) for in-state (affordable) school even if I tick all the boxes (after I left I watched some of my best friends who had top marks linger in minimum wage veterinary assistant jobs for years before being accepted or dropping out).
It's a female dominated field (roughly 1 man for every 20 women) which means you don't have much time for dating or a personal life period. I knew at least half a dozen men who started out in veterinary medicine but then switched to human medicine because it paid more, had more respect, and was less physically demanding. A disproportionatly high number of mentors/fellow students I knew and worked under seemed exhausted all the time, didn't have much time for family (or were single/divorced), didn't take the same care of their own health as they tried their clients, and would say "but it's worth it" through gritted teeth. A veterinary opthamologist in my family actually told me not to do it throughout the entire process, that it wasn't worth it, and if she had to do it over she wouldn't have (she didn't have her first and only child, who had developmental problems, until she was 41). Factor in high rates of depression compared to other professions (doctor/lawyer/etc), possibly because of the reasons I cited, along with spending more time than we would like to admit, killing (euthanizing) the things we are supposed to love and protect.
I remember the head of radiology at one veterinary school in particular, counselling me about my future in the field, from her dark windowless office the size of a closet, filing cabinets haphazardly over-stuffed with patient files, soul destroying blue glow of a single flourecent light above. She never married, was in her late 50s, and had just adopted a little boy from China to fill the loneliness in her life. It was the life for her, but it didn't feel like the one for me.
All that dedication, I thought, to put my hand up a cow's ass somewhere in the midwest (because that's where the jobs are) and tell owners to give their pets pharmecuticals, tests, treatments, and special foods they don't necessarily need (because it is what we are trained to do) in lieu of a healthy natural diet or humane euthansia. I do think veterinary surgeons have a more useful role compared to small animal practicioners, as well as in food inspection. Animal vaccination and infectious disease control is also essential to maintaining human and animal health.
But I digress. I decided to get a MBA, go enjoy my youth, and travel the world. Met the man of my dreams on those travels and moved abroad where I now work for a charity, and have the home life I used to fantasize about when I was studying veterinary medicine. You only live once and what scares me most is the person I would have been (and given up) had I pursued that path.
When I was a pre-med student, one of my friends applied to Baylor Med School and was accepted in the Early Admission Program. He had second thoughts and turned it down. He then applied to our in-state Vet School. He was rejected. I often wonder whatever became of him?
Ahh, the innocence and hope of youth makes us think a black and white world was put there just to serve our simple childhood dreams and pursuits. Then we get older and a grey world emerges and reality and disillusionment set in hard and fast. One of the friends with top marks I talked about, applied twice, got in, and completed her first year of vet school with top grades. Then she developed a idiopathic chronic health problem, and because of the physical demands of the training she was forced to dropped out. She thought it was the end of the world. One world yes. She ended up becoming holistic medicine practictioner (training was much more accomidating and flexible). She also does chinese translating in her field.
Wow, I would just like to give a different view of the profession that Expat just tore to shreds, even though she was never even a part of it. I am a well-balanced, HAPPY 25 year old that is engaged to be married and graduating from veterinary school in one week. I'm not sure where Expat is finding all of these people who regret choosing to enter into the veterinary profession, but I haven't seen hide nor hair of them where I live. I have a job lined up (as do the majority of my classmates–and NO, we're not all moving to the Midwest to practice bovine medicine) at an urban, AAHA accredited small animal hospital that pays good money. Over half of my class of 130 students is either engaged or married, more than 10 of my classmates have children, and we're excited to be starting the career we've worked so hard for.
Yes, veterinary school is hard to get into, and they have rigorous admissions standards, but with good grades and decent experience it's certainly not a long shot–I was accepted into 4 schools the very first time I applied, and I didn't have to sell my soul to get them. And yes, veterinary school is expensive, but there are new plans every day for loan forgiveness options, and salaries are on the rise. And yes, veterinary school itself is HARD. It should be hard! We have four years to learn medicine, treatment plans, and even surgery...good Lord, if vet school weren't hard, you sure as hell wouldn't want your veterinarian cutting repairing your dog's torn ACL, or spaying your cat, or properly caring for a heart-failure patient. Vet school is incredibly hard! But at the end of the day, my friends and I are able to find the joy in what we're doing and what we're working towards.
I recognize that I'm making assumptions about someone I have never met, but Expat sounds particularly bitter and negatively biased about the field of veterinary medicine, and I find it highly offensive that someone would paint our profession in such a miserable light, ESPECIALLY considering she has never walked the walk. Are you a veterinarian, Expat? No, you made that very clear. So please stop pretending you know what our jobs are like–some of us care about the lives we have the opportunity to save more than the size of our office. So you didn't want to be a veterinarian, Expat. Big deal, there are plenty of people that do, and we love our jobs, and we love our lives, and we'd love if you wouldn't bash them, especially considering the fact that you never DID any of the things you're talking crap about. Thanks.
While I believe doctors should receive fair compensation, medical care is getting to be out of the reach of many of us. If you don't have insurance many doctors won't take you as a patient. I qualify for a $50 copay at a clinic but they have not had one opening to see a doctor since January. There is only so much you can have done in clinics and drug stores.
How can you even consider an NFL or NBA player's salary a logical comparison? Or even consider it a profession that can easily be chosen. Becoming a Doctor is far from easy, but the average person is way more likely to become a doctor than a NFL or NBA player.
There are close to 1 million doctors in the United States. There are about 1,700 NFL players and less than 500 NBA players.
Plus, those players are paid that much money because those teams make that much money. It is NOT a system with high salaries that the government must pay to support.
As a pediatrician I knew what I was getting into when it came to the cost of medical school, that it is the lowest paid medical specialty, etc... Despite that I couldn't resist doing something I love vs. doing something just because of the salary.
I think it is normal that the initial reaction is suprise or disgust to hearing many doctors aren't satisified with their income. In defense of most doctors, we got into medicine to help people and to provide a comfortable, not luxurious, life to ourselves and family, while continuing our lifetime educational/academic pursuits.
After 11 to 15 yrs of school (college through residency), sacrificing social life in college, missing some friends/family weddings or other events etc... Also knowing if you don't finish once you get to medical school you can't use those skills without a medical license. Life changes during a decade, interests may change, marriage/divorce, kids etc... . It is hard to quit and change professions at that point because of the time spent and student loan debt that is adding up. I haven't even mentioned the many long hrs, days/nights, and life or death decisions being made. When you are at a crictically ill patient's bedside at 2 am, do you wish you were somewhere else?
Does this justify doctor's salaries? I think so
Doctors don't grow on trees, and most would not go through the above obstacles to get there. Then add rising cost of medical education. Mine were $230,000, finishing residency in 2007, versus my partner, $20,000 in 1989. Doctor's incomes do not rise based on length of time with a company or with inflation. It is connected to how many patients they see and what insurance, or patient will pay. You work more, you make more, but you can't work 24/7. Salary averages stay the same despite rising student loan cost, malpractice, or other increasing cost of running an office.
Prospective medical students have to weigh whether or not the sacrifice is worth it.
Luckily, I am happy with my decision, I like helping people, can't think of anything else I'd rather do, but I worry that my children may not follow me into medicine because the sacrifice may not balance the cost anymore.
Do we expect accountants, lawyers, and financial advisors to listen to our life history in 10-15 minutes and give us a plan before the end of that 15-20min visit?
No, but we expect doctors to.
i think that in general, this issue boils down to loan repayment. if you come out of medical school with $200K+ in debt (more if you are an out of state student) and you go into family medicine, your $80-$120K salary coming out of residency will barely keep you afloat, especially compared to a classmate whose ortho specialty will net him/her $350K starting salary after residency. but these two students have the same amount of debt to repay because med school costs what it costs regardless of what you'll make in the field afterwards.
personally, i think the system is backward. the government (medicare) currently subsidizes medical residencies which pays for residents' salaries across the country. why not, instead, have medicare cover medical school. 4 years of free tuition, courtesy of the government, and then if you want to pursue a higher-paid specialty (with multiple years of residency), you pay for that yourself or with loans. it's a way to equalize the system so that family medicine is a more palatable option – you would only pay for 1 year of post-graduate residency, rather than, say, the 8+ years it will take to become a neurosurgeon.
This seems like a logical solution, especially considering there is already a shortage of primary care physicians with most students preferring to work in a higher paid specialty.
It's interesting to read all of these comments.
I'm a medical student, and in the military – anybody have something overly-demeaning and unnecessary to say to me, too?
Thank you for serving.
No kidding, I know an Anesthesiologist who makes 500 grand a year, gives all the work to his nurse anesthetist to do and hits the links in the afternoon. Yes, they could theoretically kill a patient, but after 12 years of training, you should probably be able to manage the process.
Please do not put all doctor's in the same category. We know GP's are overworked and underpaid, especially in rural areas, but let's not put all doctor's in the same box, just as we shouldn't be comparing all lawyers to each other and the anecdotal story of the oil worker/plumber making 150 grand a year. These stats that are being thrown around are skewed.
This article is about doctors salaries. The Anesthesiologist who makes 500 grand a year is not working on salary. He is a business owner and the nurse aneshetist is his employee. A plumber may make 60-70k a year but if he works hard and builds a large plumbing company he may make 500 grand a year. Then he can hit the links and let his 60K a year employees do all the work.
Oh yeah and BTW Nurse anethetists make a median salary of $150,000. –What?– Yeah $150,000 for a nurse. But, you know what? They "also" earn every dollar of it, because they can keep you alive when the Thoracic surgeon open up your chest stops your beating heart, replaces you defective valve, sews everything back together, and then restarts your heart.
I am an Ex-Physician who retired from medicine in my 30's. The healthcare system is immensely broken and I see it only getting worse. Physicians who are now graduating from med school owing hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with ever dwindling reimbursements are GROSSLY underpaid for all the sacrifice, stress, and responsibility involved. If you payed me a million dollars a year I still wouldn't go back! I am so much happier now than I ever was during my doctor days. I'll take my blissful 35 hr work weeks, with weekends off for life, and NO CALL anyday over that of a physician's backbreaking grueling schedule. So glad I got off that train because it is about to go off the cliff and I'll be waving down from above when it does.
The author says,"Medicine is also the only profession where its members are required to sometimes work for free." Has he never heard of pro bono work? The American Bar Association recommends that lawyers do 50 hrs. of pro bono work every year. So lawyers are sometimes required to work for free. Pro bono work is becoming increasingly recommended in many professions.
This author comes across as a whiner. Every job has its pros and cons, that is why you should investigate a profession before committing years of work to becoming a member of that profession.
As far as money, I know doctors who get paid far less than the amounts being cited because they have chosen to work with impoverished people. They under went the same training and incurred the same expenses but they don't whine about what they are being paid. They have chosen to put the welfare of people before the welfare of their wallets.
required: past participle, past tense of re·quire (Verb)Verb: Cause to be necessary.
recommended: past participle, past tense of rec·om·mend (Verb)Verb: Advise or suggest (something) as a course of action
the author of this post comes off as an idiot
oh... and if it were only 50 hours a year of pro bono work that we did .... my god i can't even imaging that.
All the MDs on this page know 50 hours of pro bono work is only done in a month if you're lucky...
Are you kidding me?? We do 50 hours of pro bono work per WEEK. You don't even work 50 hours per week TOTAL.
99% of us are underpaid. Welcome to the club. The uneducated, the educated, migrant farmworkers ...
Heck yeah I went into medicine for the money....no way I would do this for the type of pay the slobs that comment on this post probably make....and I love making 600K per year. Thank you.
You need a believable, or better explained, story. You say "$3,200 to forward to me for all my surgical and office fees". Wouldn't $3,200 be about right for vary minor surgery? Shouldn't leg and facial bone surgery be in the $50,000+ range?
It should be.... But 3200 is probably on the high end of what you would make.... Besides' if physicians make 50k for surgery like that we'd make $750k a week.... That's a little too extreme in the other way...
I graduated from a 5-year teaching school with $32,000 in loans when the average teaching salary was $33,000 a year. It's all relative.
sorry, I do not feel sorry for physicians at ALL ! I have 4 years of college, a 2 year master's degree, a 4 year PhD, a 2 year postdoc and 20 years experience as a professor. I work (contrary to popular opinion) about 60 hours a week and 12 months per year to cover my 20 hours of in class time, class prep and grading, research, and committee work. My salary is 88k per year. I went into this profession because I love my subject and I love teaching. I would HOPE that my physician also did it for the love of the profession and not the money! Physicians are over-rated and over-paid!
When is the last time you got sued for teaching? When is the last time you didn't get a paycheck? I just gave a deposition a few weeks ago on something that was completely not my fault but the plaintiff would have you believe otherwise, on top of that we just operated on 2 people with appendicitis and did another procedure all before 7am today and all for free. I'm not one that is saying I'm overpaid, I just think I've earned my money. Go pick on some other profession.
Thank you! Medicine ( like teaching) is about DEDICATION to people. It is about giving and caring, instead of calculating and profiting..
I don't know how things were when you got your degrees, or what your degrees are in, but at my school master's and PhD students in science fields have the cost of their education covered as well as make a stipend of up to $29,000 until they finish. So not only do they get a free education, they get paid. It is not even close to the same as medical students
I love how you delusional doctors think it is NEVER your fault when it comes to malpractice. Its ALWAYS someone else's.
I have never met a doctor who admits to fault. Either they are gods or they are delusional narcissists. The evidence points to the later.
Sadly, if you look at the statistics regarding quality of care compared to other similarly situated nations, you can not help but laugh out of disgust at these pathetic overpaid blowhards.
Further, if you examine the salaries of nurse practictioners and PhD's and what they really do, it becomes quite clear physicians are overpaid.
All these doctors that are ranting about the time they spent in college and not smoking pot and going to class on time... Yeah, I did that too. No drugs, no partying, class on time and all that jazz! I have a college degree and work in the criminal justice system and I save lives too! In doing my job, dealing with dangerous felons, I risk my life to protect others and I make a mere $40,000. So get over yourselves!! LOTS of people save lives doing their jobs. Cops, EMTS, Paramedics, Nurses and even random citizens. My husband is a construction worker and has rescued 2 people in separate events that were both drowning! There are many ways to save lives that don't involve charging them $80,000 for one hospital visit! And Brian (that commented above) is right, no doctor does any life saving alone – they have a team of people that assist them, provide them crucial information and enable them to do their job – lab techs, xray techs, nurses, etc...
My line of work may not pay great, but it requires a lot of dedication that is not motivated by greed! Would you still do your job for $40,000? So not only do I do a very tough-important job, but I get looked down on by people like you that think my job isn't nearly as important.
for the doctors: stop. you are not going to garner any support by arguing that you make too little money. you work hard. you take care of people for free ... often. you still make a better living than the average person, and you (we) are fortunate to have a really cool job.
for the non-doctors: don't worry about how much a doctor makes. just think about how much the treatment from YOUR doctor is worth to you. think about how much it is worth that you no longer have pain because your gallbladder is out, or you are alive and not dead from an infected and ruptured appendix ... how you are happy that you can live a little longer with your family because you doctor has the right cancer treatment ... how your grandma can walk about with that new hip after she broke the one God gave her ... how you happily see the neighbor kid running around now instead of having gone to his funeral because some doctor got to him fast enough with an epi pen ... how thankful you are that there was a team of trauma doctors around 24/7/365 when that someone you knew had a horrific accident. they get paid well. but they also offer much to you. yeah, you pay a small part of that income; but for the health and vitality of your kid, spouse, parent, or you ... probably worth it.
I'm reading a lot of complaints about not being able to unionize. If so, support state legislature candidates who will support your changes. Also, most people have trouble forming unions, not just doctors, and that is because they are effective. But still, I have no sympathy for people who make 5-8 times what the average person makes. I know people who went to college, racked up $100,00 in debt only to find $30,000 sales jobs waiting on them because they weren't in a specialty. Do these people not deserve a decent life too? And if your school cost too much, complain to the schools, if you work too many hours, work the system and get a union. But don't expect a population that works just as hard as you do, and as a whole hasn't gotten a raise since 1996 to feel sorry for you.
Some doctors are overpaid and some are underpaid. The problem with doctor pay is the same problem we have with teacher pay. Some doctors give you their very best everytime you see them. Others spend 30 second with you and refer you to a specialist and never follow up. I recently had a doctor criticize my internet research, saying, "I wouldn't tell you how to do your job." I actually didn't tell him how to do his job. I just asked him a question based on something I had read. I honestly wouldn't care if he did tell me how to do my job, because I am confident in what I do, but because his job is related to my health, and my job has nothing to do with his health, the situation is not parallel. Physicians have difficult jobs. The ones that solve problems, care for patients and follow through deserve every penny they get and probably more. Unfortunately, there are not too many of them.
Boo hoo. I have no pity for 6 figure professionals when there are skilled electronic and mechanical engineers who are paid far less than they are worth because corporations are shipping their jobs overseas. Doctors whine about having to work on people that cannot pay their insane fees. They would be paid if the wealthy would quit fighting universal health care. Our country is in a crisis, the majority of bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. Doctors charge too much. Drug companies charge too much. Hospitals charge too much. Insurance companies charge too much. Even simple medical instruments are way too costly. We have too many greedy hands in the till of healthcare. Until greed is cured our healthcare system will remain sick.
You can not start your argument with shipping jobs overseas when talkng about doctors unless the doctors are being sent here.
A mechanic was removing a cylinder head from the motor of a Harley motorcycle when he spotted a well-known heart surgeon in his shop.
The surgeon was there, waiting for the service manager to come and take a look at his bike.
The mechanic shouted across the garage, "Hey, Doc, can I ask you a question?"
The surgeon a bit surprised, walked over to the mechanic working on the motorcycle. The mechanic straightened up, wiped his hands on a rag and asked, "So Doc, look at this engine. I open its heart, take the valves out, fix 'em, put 'em back in, and when I finish, it works just like new. So how come I get such a small salary and you get the really big bucks, when you and I are doing basically the same work?"
The surgeon paused, smiled and leaned over, and whispered to the mechanic...
"Try doing it with the engine running.”
Old Old story . . . often told by Doctors !
Awesome!
So why insurance company sent check to Dave to forward to doctor? I had various health insurances over time and went through various types of office visits, never I got any money from my insurance to forward to my doctor. Maybe that's how things work at some places, but it's not believable...
I think my primary care doctor is great. A young guy who I was able to watch finish his training before being hired on to replace my retiring doctor. He grew up with a cousin of mine and does not come from a wealthy family. My wife and I are in our middle years of our careers. Together, we make a reasonable living and after 20 years paid off our student loans. I with a Master's and she with a Doctorate. We have only vacationed a few times overseas, married by the preacher with family, honeymooned by driving the coast and stopping wherever we felt like it, live in a modest 3 bedroom home, and drive a Toyota and a Ford. Now my young doctor has taken at least one or two trips overseas all seven years in practice with a group a doctor friends, bought a six-bedroom home with a pool for his new wife this summer, married at an exclusive club where he is a member and honeymooned in the Turks and Caicos for 2 weeks. I parked next to him on my last visit. A new BMW of some sort with the dealer tag still on it. Oh, he married a teacher and no, she doesn't come from money. I do not blame him for enjoying his income, but even if he is doing this in debt, after over 20 years, my wife and I could not even come close. I have no sympathy for how "little" doctors earn.
Doctors and Teachers have to be some of the most important professions there is. I just had knee surgery. First surgery ever and my Dr. did a great job. Kept me informed and made me feel comfortable. Hats off to all Dr.'s for all your hard work and effort. Reading the comments from other people just shows what a sad world we live in. All doctors who have commented on this article and my read my comment, I just want to say thank you for the time you took to become what you are and caring for the ill.
You are welcome
I have as of yet to see a doctor that needed anything. Spare me and the rest of 'working america" . This is BS!!!.
I actually saw where one doctor said he is proud of his 225k salary and thinks he deserves it. Just shut up,.
Why don't you think he deserves it after the amount of education and work it takes to become a doctor.
If that doctor cured or assisted in curing a terminal disease would you place a price on their salary if you or your family was cured by that doctor. You need to evaluate your perception of importance between time and money sir ridiculous.
I suspect doctors will make less and less money as time goes on. The U.S. health care sector is $3 trillion per year. The U.S. economy simply cannot afford that much money.
My local hospital (university based) took in $26 million of health care revenue in 2008 – in 2011 the hospital only took in $5 million of health care revenue. If that is any indication of our economy, doctors' pay will soon follow suit and go south, way south.
Rightfully so.
I am a physician and am shaken by the overt hatred toward doctors I am reading. These people cannot possibly relate to tremendous toll these jobs take on our lives. Sure it was a choice, people should be THANKFUL we were willing to sacrifice so much for such a thankless population of people.
People in this country spend their whole lives destroying there beautiful perfect bodies and one day they all fall apart on our doorsteps and doc you better fix me and if you even chip a tooth in the process I'll sue you ass to kingdom come(so I can be rich too).
I'll bet my entire net worth: NEGATIVE $200,000 that not a single doc hater has ever worked at there job for 36hrs strait, 80-90hrs a week. NOT ONE. Because no other training in ANY profession anywhere requires such merciless training. And there is a reason. The buck stops with us. Lives are in our hands. Sure there is a huge support system to support doc but DECISIONS are what saves and decisions come from doctors.
One day you(doc haters) will be on my table dying(usually from self inflicted lifestyle choices) and I will be rubbing every neuron in my brain together to figure out how to keep you alive, then you'll be glad I am paid such vast sums of money.
I am a practicing physician who went into medicine because I actually wanted to use my particular skillset to help people in a way most other professions cannot. I do not make decisions about my patients healthcare based on how much money I could make. The simple truth remains that your Doctor is not the same as your grocer, broker, IT guy, banker, etc and for most people their health is incredibly valuable. How do you assign a price for that? If you pay your Doctor like you pay your Barber you will get what you pay for.
It is very sad that you put the amazing gift to heal and cure people next to the customer service as a banker, barber, etc. I just have one question for you: if people don't have money for good haircut, you think they should die from the poorly treated illness also? Or ,even better , spread the infection around in the community because they have nothing to pay for the medical care? Can you see the difference ? I can only hope that your set of professional values can change one day.
Reader, once again you don't understand the post you are responding to, and your response is gibberish. You're in way over your head.
Housekeepers are responsible to clean every patient rooms to prevent the germs better than Doctors' dress germs but they are more stressed and underpaid and more overtimes than Doctor. The doctor got 3 to 5 dollars an hour but the housekeeper earns from 5 cents to 40 cents an hour every year..
Dear "Puzzled" – you have time to scan CNN's obscure health section, read these posts, and pen a response like this?
Shouldn't you be writing in your patients' charts or something? Saving a life somewhere in your 90+ hours this week?
Ps – I suspect there is 500,000 combat veterans who've worked as hard as you – you willing to pay them each $200,000? No, I suspect not – you're too full of yourself to ever think someone deserves as much as you – poor fella.
Brian, you seem to be exhibiting some anger or possibly jealously towards doctors. If you feel this way then don't seek any help from a doctor when you are on your death bed.
By the way, those 500,000 combat veterans that return with PTSD and physical problems are receiving free care from doctors at their local VA.
Your point is that doctors should never be allowed to have a life, be human, ever?
Don't drag our vets into this discussion. My wife is a physician in the VA system. She chose to work for our vets and knew she would make less working there. She loves her job and her vets.
Like I said one day you or a loved one will be in the care of a physician who will without question will do everything in there power to save their life and then you will finally be thankful .
Danielle – you're kidding, right? You don't like my reasoning, so you slander me with "angry" or "jealousy?"
Doctors are narcissistic – that's not anger or jealousy talking. That's reading a bunch of doctors' posts that contain the word " I " 15 times. That's reading a bunch of doctors' posts that say, "I work too hard!" That's reading a bunch of dotors' posts that say, "Poor me, I sacrificed!"
You simply don't like anyone calling your precious doctors for what they are: narcissistic. They love themselves a bit too much. Give a doctor a chance to share pay with other hospital workers and they would say NO in a skinny minute. I do hope the economy cripples doctors – that's not jealously – it's justice. There's a diference.
Ps – do you really think "paying" our combat veterans with VA care is enough for them? If so, then let's pay medical doctors with free VA care. We'd save a bunch of money.
Puzzled:
I just assumed from your claim of 80-90 hrs per week, you'd be busy in some hospital saving someone's life. It was a fair assumption.
Being thankful for someone's work shouldn't necessarily involve GAINT GIANT paychecks. For instance, we're all VERY thankful for our sanitation workers, but they get paid pennies.
Can you imagine a house with no trash pick-up....ever? A business with no trash pick-up....ever? No landfill, because the sanitation workers aren't there? How quickly would our society be overrun with garbage, refuse, and icky-stiky-germs, rats, mice, flies, other vermin and varmits? It wouldn't take long to be "Thankful" for sanitation workers. Doctors certainly like them, because doctors are way too busy to dig a landfill for themselves.....
Just poking fun. I cannot remember hearing of a profession that was a universally nacissistic as medical doctors. At my death-bed, I don't want a doctor, I want God.
Oooops. My mistake, doctors are God (....that's the narcissism I'm talking about).
Well when the economy "cripples" all the doctors who will you turn to for your healthcare? The midlevel provider with less than half the education and training of a physician.
By the way, physicians need to have high self esteem with some to the point of narcissism in order to perform their jobs. If you do not have confidence in yourself how are you going to make snap decisions that may save someone's life or kill them.
Brian you honestly think crippling doctors financially is justice? To what ill have we done? If you ever seek the help of a physician ever again you sir are a hypocrite.
Brian: I don't know where you are harboring all this hatred towards doctor.
First of all, you can't compare doctors to garbage cleaners or sanitation people. It's true that they contribute to our society, but ANYONE can do that job. I don't think you understand the training involved in being a doctor. Every single doctor gave up their entire 20's-early 30's for their job taking in negative income or almost no money at all.
Brian in all fairness, I don't think you understand the stress and responsibility a doctor carries. Are doctors underpaid? I don't think so, but I do think that the intelligence of average people entering med school can make MUCH more $$ in other professions. They enter the profession with their heart. Maybe you've had bad doctors, but they don't apply to every single one of them.
The people in med school are some of the most intelligent people coming from the best universities. Just remember that; you cannot compare that to a sanitation engineer.
As for narcissism, honestly, any professional / executive job has people who are narcissistic. Google "Overherad on the Goldman Sachs Elevator." Just read what these bankers are saying about the middle class. Tell me that's not narcissistic or sheer ridiculous. And to think a lot of what they did caused us the recession we have now...
Medicine is about sacrifice and devotion, not about staring in the mirror and seeing a "god" in reflection . There are other jobs for that: fashion modeling for example. Good care for patients, especially with the current prices, should be a standard. Stop harass people with this : "don't go to physicians when you on the death bed". Physicians take an oath for reason : it is their DUTY, not a choice to take care their patients.
Brian,
As another doc, I would love to prescribe you with the single task of befriending a doc. Really. There are bad and narcissistic people in all professions and walks of life, but the majority of us docs are here to help and chose this long and arduous journey to do good. BTW, speaking as a working mom in serious debt due to school loans, money isn't everything, and thank goodness I feel that way because if I didn't, I would feel underpaid. My main reward comes from the many genuinely grateful patients that I encounter on a daily basis. And these particular patients aren't your run of the mill either. I serve our veterans and am honored to do so. Everyday I thank them for their service. Nothing can repay the service and sacrifice that they have given. I also go to third world countries on my own dime to provide medical and surgical care to those who otherwise would not have any – and guess what – even those communities without trash service are incredibly grateful to our team for their care.
You obviously have some deep-seated anger issues and hope you get that figured out. I am NOT the exception either as far as philanthropy within the medical community – I have met docs that will forever stand out as true heroes.
As to the death bed – I am all in favor of less medical intervention when that time comes....HOWEVER, should you ever need the service of a physician to save your sight, your lungs, your brain from a stroke – let's just see how much you would want god vs, medical care then. Hope you take my advice and start a discussion and a friendship with a doc in your community – I think your ridiculous opinions about all of us will finally stand a chance of being rectified.
Another Doc –
Rediculous opinions? How's this one: as a doctor, have you taken the time to befriend a hospital janitor? Don't lie to yourself, patting them on the head and asking insincere overhead questions insn't befriending. You may be in jeapard of being a hypocrit to prescribe something to me you've not actually done in reverse.
It isn't deep seated anger you're "getting" from me. That's simply your way of disregarding points of inflective pain you don't care to hear. You choose an ad-hominem attack on the person that uttered the words. It's best to claim the speaker has "anger" issues, so you don't have to admit there is a valid point being made. I find medical doctors see themselves as too good to befriend "regular" or "common" folk. That's why so many doctors marry other doctors and not the janitor. Doctors love themselves and see anyone else as less than.
Doctors see themselves as Gods. As for saving someone's sight, lungs, or brain, who do you think affords doctors the priviledge of knowing it is a stroke in the first place? Perhaps it was the x-ray teck who performed the CT or MRI – but you wouldn't begin to give them credit would you? That's nacissism, but it's a natural thing for doctors to take all the credit. Who do you think takes care of the meds to mitigate the stroke – that would be the pharmacy – not the doctor.
I see doctors as cogs in a big wheel and they have the extreme narcissistic tendency to take the credit for the whole wheel.
Not for nothing but my husband is a collision repair tech and the insurance companies rule his paycheck also. Granted the most he has made in a year was 50,000.. this year we will be lucky to see 36000...why?? Same flipping reason, the insurance companies do stupid things like send the checks to their clients and then bend the shops arm to make them give the car back. My husband is only paid by the JOB not the hour..so yea, you try working on a car bringing it back to specs and then get paid but know that it came from your boss and not the insurance company..it sucks when you are barely making it. I can totally relate to these doctors even if we are not on the same income. Insurance companies take your premiums and then deny service when you need it and also jack your doctor at the same time...look at the profits of any insurance company and you will find rampant greed!!! They suck the live blood out of everybody in this country!