Parents avoid vaccine by spreading disease through mail
November 9th, 2011
10:42 AM ET

Parents avoid vaccine by spreading disease through mail

Parents who don’t want to give their children the chickenpox vaccine are choosing instead to buy mail-order lollipops already sucked on by sick kids.

They hope their child will get chickenpox and then develop a natural immunity.

CNN affiliate KPHO in Phoenix found a Facebook website called “Find a Pox Party in Your Area,” which included postings of parents willing to ship infected items across the country.

“Fresh batch of Pox in Nashville Tennessee. Shipping of suckers, spit, and Q-tips available tomorrow. $50 via PayPal,” reads one post. It goes on to explain the money covers overnight shipping.

Parents allow children whose chickenpox is contagious to infect the item before packing and shipping it to parents elsewhere in the country. Those parents then give the items to their children in the hopes they will come down with chickenpox.

“Our round was FedEx’d fromArizona!” reads one Facebook post quoted by KPHO. “We’ve spread cooties to Cookeville, Knoxville and Louisiana.”

The website, which had about 1,000 Facebook likes, has now been removed. Archived versions of the site show its purpose listed as “a group for parents who want their children to obtain natural immunity for the chicken pox.”

Sending the saliva, lollipops, or other material could pose other health risks as well. “You are sending out other germs, other bacteria, and you have no idea what is in them” says Dr. Bill Schaffner, chair of the Department of Preventive Medicine at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine. It’s not even clear it will work. “It is not a good way to transmit chickenpox” he says. “Typically somebody breathes out the virus and then somebody else breaths it in.”

The chickenpox (or varicella) vaccine became available in the United States in 1995. Nearly 6% of parents don’t vaccinate their children with it as recommended, according to a study published last month in the journal Pediatrics.

Side effects of the vaccine include soreness or swelling where the shot was given, a fever in one in 10 people, and a rash in one out of 25. Seizure and pneumonia are also possible, but the CDC says they are “very rare” adding “getting chickenpox vaccine is much safer than getting chickenpox disease.”

Before the vaccine, chickenpox caused more than 10,000 hospitalizations in an average year in the U.S., and between 1990 and 1994 about 50 children and 50 adults died each year according to the CDC. The majority were in previously healthy individuals.

“What is obviously going on is we have some mothers who are trying to be imaginative and are vaccine skeptics,” says Schaffner. He says this is a new variation of the chickenpox party, where parents would allow healthy children to play with infected ones to get the virus. “Chickenpox parties are really bad ideas,” he says. “There is not a pediatrician in the country that would recommend this.”

KPHO also found a few comments where parents were looking to have their children infected with measles mumps and rubella. Those diseases could be even more dangerous.

What these parents are doing violates federal law according to Jerry Martin, the U.S. Attorney for the Middle District of Tennessee. “Sending a virus or disease through the U.S. mail is illegal,” he says. “Also, it is against federal law to adulterate or tamper with consumer products, such as candy. Finally, it is illegal to introduce into interstate commerce unauthorized biological materials.”

Policy prevents him from saying whether his office is  investigating parents who sent the lollipops and other items.

soundoff (271 Responses)
  1. NancyG

    My daughter got the chicken pox vaccine and still came down with chicken pox later on. The vaccine is not a guarantee against it but it did make my daughter's case much less severe than if she didn't have it.

    November 9, 2011 at 10:53 | Report abuse | Reply
    • dx2718

      All the kids at my daughter's daycare were vaccinated, but one came down with it anyway, and it happened to be one of my daughter's close friends. However, nobody else got it, including my daughter AND the sick girl's little brother, who was too young to be vaccinated and they actually tried to expose to his sister so he would get sick and get natural immunity. Given that the older sister didn't manage to give it to her brother, I find it unlikely that the mail-order lollipops would actually work. Certainly they're expensive and unregulated – seems to me the vaccine is much safer and more likely to have the desired effect.

      November 10, 2011 at 15:05 | Report abuse |
  2. Jane

    This has got to be the most idiodic thing I have ever heard. Besides sending a dangerous bacteria through the mail, where literally hundereds of people could be exposed just in the delivery process (including those who have comprimised immune systems), this 'idea' is not founded in science or even general common sense. Get a grip people.

    November 9, 2011 at 11:02 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Valentijn

      Not to mention that children do not become immune to chicken pox after getting it. Just like all the other Herpes viruses, it never goes away, and will wait for an opportune time to emerge from dormancy.

      November 9, 2011 at 11:44 | Report abuse |
    • chickenpox and shingles

      Varicela minor is not a herpes virus at all but it does get stored inside the body. Some adults who had chickenpox as a child will develop shingles later, which is the same virus but a much, much worse illness characterized mostly by neuropathic pain. Getting the chickenpox means a person might get shingles later in life. Being vaccinated against chickenpox means no shingles later. This is a no brainer and as usual, brainless mothers are out and acting on rumors and not validated information.

      November 9, 2011 at 18:44 | Report abuse |
    • dave

      1. VZV is a virus, not bacteria
      2. You are MORE likely to get shingles later in life if never exposed to the actual virulent virus (i.e. vaccination)–>reply to chicken pox and shingles

      November 9, 2011 at 20:24 | Report abuse |
    • Valentijn

      Chicken pox is caused by the varicella zoster virus. That is a Herpes virus. The same Herpes virus that causes shingles if reactivated.

      November 10, 2011 at 07:22 | Report abuse |
    • Elizabeth

      I had a bad case of chicken pox as a child, and a horrible case of shingles a few years ago. Then they would not give the shingles vaccination to anybody under 60, or insurance wouldn't pay for it. Now they give it to anybody over 50, but I can't get the vaccine because my husband has cancer, and my doctor says it is too much of a risk to him. Shingles on the face can cause blindness, because it affects the optic nerve, and many other neurological problems, and the pain never goes away. And it can cause meningitis. Measles also leads to blindness, deafness, and encephalitis or meningitis with permanent brain damage. Mumps is painful and can cause permanent sterility. Rubella will cause birth defects if a pregnant woman gets it. So get a clue, and don't expose your kids to these diseases. I can't stand it when some parents think they can play god with other peoples' children.

      November 10, 2011 at 23:25 | Report abuse |
  3. Jen

    Gross!! This is insane, can't believe people are actually doing this!

    November 9, 2011 at 11:04 | Report abuse | Reply
    • lordshipmayhem

      Believe it. There are those, supposedly well educated, who believe the vaccine is dangerous – more dangerous than the disease it's supposed to prevent. They believe the same of all vaccines, and no scientific study nor assurance by knowledgeable professionals will shift their fact-free opinion. They blame vaccines for autism (also without a shred of evidence to back that belief up). They're supported not by trained physicians or biologists or by epidemiologists but by quacks (many of whom do not believe in the germ theory of disease) and by ambulance chasing lawyers (who don't care that there's no science behind it, as long as they can convince a jury to grant the "victims" big liability awards).

      And that's why childhood diseases thought conquered in the 1950's are making a comeback, with deadly consequences. See the Jenny McCarthy Body Count (.com) website.

      November 9, 2011 at 18:12 | Report abuse |
  4. susan

    This is bona fide child abuse and should be prosecuted as such. It is unbelievably callous, ignorant, and unethical to intentionally cause harm to your own child, and to expose them to such risk. What people do not realize is that chicken pox is not always and not entirely a benign virus. As the article points out, many die every year. Others suffer and some are left with brain damage of varying degrees.
    My kids caught chickenpox. My oldest was very sick, the next youngest was mildly sick but my then 2 year old healthy boy developed disseminated chickenpox and encephalitis and pneumonia. He endured the trauma of illness, hospitalization, isolation, and grew up with learning disabilities we always wondered if it were related. At least I do not bear the guilt of having deliberately sickened my baby.
    I am not a big believer in vaccines-I think we will see as we have with other diseases that the more virulent strains will survive and it will become an increasingly dangerous disease as a result. but neither do I believe it is EVER justifiable to deliberately expose your child to a virus.

    November 9, 2011 at 11:08 | Report abuse | Reply
  5. shingles

    What i want to know is if the chicken pox vaccine could help in the eradication of shingles in later years, which i have heard are painful.

    November 9, 2011 at 11:11 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Bob C.

      It's supposed to, but we won't really know for another 40 years. We have to wait for the kids to grow old and see what happens.

      November 9, 2011 at 11:28 | Report abuse |
    • Erin

      It's been shown in a study released in 2009 that there was less chances of shingles in a group of children who were watched over a short amount of time. Less children showed with Shingles than usual. This is one thing I can't believe that parents want to give their child chicken pox, do they know it can also cause shingles?!

      November 9, 2011 at 11:37 | Report abuse |
    • ser

      good question- I work in an infectious disease department and was just reading about this this morning.....there actually is a vaccine to be given to adults for Herpes Zoster....aka..shingles...it is called varivax and there is another, however i forget what it is called. but there is a vaccine out there for adults to prevent shingles...i encourage you to speak to your Dr. about this.

      November 9, 2011 at 12:17 | Report abuse |
    • Susan

      Shingles is indeed a reactivation of the chicken pox virus and I got my first episode of Shingles in my early twenties after getting the chicken pox VERY badly at age 8. Having been through two un-medicated childbirths and a tumor on my spinal cord that was pressing on several major nerves, I can definitely say that shingles is the MOST painful thing I have ever experienced and it can last weeks! I am now in my mid-40s and have two more bouts with shingles since my first.

      My older son just missed being able to get the chicken pox vaccine when it came out. He got the chicken pox about 6 months earlier, as did a neighbor child who then passed it to his father. The 35 year old man ended up in the hospital with complications from the chicken pox and was off work for a month in a business where he worked completely on commission. It took the family over a year to get back to where they were financially before the father got sick.

      My older son had his first bout of shingles at age 12, suffering a miserable Christmas that year. I felt helpless watching him suffer and cursed the fact that the vaccine came too late to save him from it. You never hear about children getting shingles, but they do.

      I was among the first to get my younger child her chicken pox vaccinations as soon as they were available so she never, ever has to endure what I and my son do.

      In response to the person who mentioned the shingles vaccine. Good luck getting it if you are under 60 years of age. Most insurance will not cover it (because shingles is an old person's disease after all, right????) and doctors will tell you no.

      I think these parents who mail items contaminated with such a dangerous and contagious disease should be prosecuted as terrorists, just as someone who mails anthrax powder or anything else!

      November 9, 2011 at 16:14 | Report abuse |
    • JL

      @Bob C:
      Actually, we DO know that the chicken pox vaccine will reduce shingles. Chicken pox actually infects the nerve cells of cutaneous nerves, and then regresses. However the viral DNA is actually incorporated into the cellular DNA, but quiescent. Thats why people get break outs of cold sores (not the same virus, but same family), or genital herpes. By preventing infection with the virus, you prevent shingles in the future...

      November 9, 2011 at 16:33 | Report abuse |
    • Tania

      Omg that izz so true right like this is just insane if i had a child i wold want them to get it done the safe way! >:(

      November 9, 2011 at 16:35 | Report abuse |
    • libragirl56

      I'm not sure when the vaccine became available. My son now 29 had a very minor case of the chicken Pox, but came down with shingles at 8yrs old! His peditrician actually called in another 3 Dr's from their practice b/c they couldn't believe thats what he had and yes it was very painful

      November 10, 2011 at 08:01 | Report abuse |
    • Elizabeth

      For anybody who does get shingles: Get to your doctor immediately, or even the ER before the virus really sets in, and get a strong dose of anti-viral (not "tamiflu" but the one that is specific for shingles), and take those pills. It will not stop the shingles entirely, but it may prevent it from becoming more serious. Don't hesitate even a day to get the anti-viral pills, and make sure the dose is strong enough.

      Shingles hurts before the sores break out. It hurts so much that a hair brushing against the skin feels like the skin is being torn open. Pain killers DO NOT WORK. Sometimes doctors prescribe Lyrica, which is an anti-epilepsy drug, but it doesn't really stop the pain much, and no matter what, you are going to gain at least 30 lbs that won't go away; but I actually wasn't sure if weight gain was due to the Lyrica or due to the pain itself along the nerves changing the metabolism. I stopped using the Lyrica in favor of breathing exercises, but some people must take the medicine or they will never be able to function at all. I'm just lucky that I'm not blind: my doctor said that a fraction of an inch different and my optic nerve would have been involved. He also warned me of meningitis because my case was so bad.

      Susan: You've had a terrible time! I had a friend that has the genetic marker for breast/ovarian cancer, and guess what a case of shingles brought on in her breasts? So she missed a year of work, took expensive chemo, and had to start over, and move to a location where she could find work. I helped her move twice from small apartments; she has a PhD. This one virus is costing the American economy tons of money.

      I agree that people who send infectious diseases through the mail are terrorists.

      November 10, 2011 at 23:54 | Report abuse |
  6. Scott

    @susan, I think folks that do this can be charged with more than just child abuse. Sending toxic germs through the U.S. mail breaks multiple federal laws. I hope these folks get federal prison time for acting this way.

    November 9, 2011 at 11:21 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Elizabeth

      I agree. If the virus is active, that "lollipop" is going to spread its germs on other people's mail too, not just the intended victims.

      November 10, 2011 at 23:57 | Report abuse |
  7. Maggie

    this should be illegal.

    November 9, 2011 at 11:26 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Whatnow

      Maggie...I am certain that it is and you are absolutely right.

      November 9, 2011 at 11:57 | Report abuse |
  8. Scott

    This kind of thinking is the result of parents, particularly women, who have too much time on their hands. These "moms" are nosy, busy bodies that spend time on the internet, talk amongst their friends, and because of this, they think they're smarter than doctor's and their self-righteous and arrogant research think that they are the mecca for everything in the medical field. These very people could be the reason for a major breakout one day. The idiot logic purposed by these women is beyond stupidity and I hope the fed's come down hard on any family not vaccinating their children. This is also about complacency. Having spent time in the Middle-East, this is what happens when a population becomes lazy and all "self-knowing" but in fact, know very little about the rest of the world. None of these parents have spent time outside of the States to fully grasp the results of what diseases can do but in their minds, they're all too knowledgeable for anyone to tell them otherwise. And that is the danger; they are arrogant, stubborn, and refuse to think they are wrong. This is a bad mix. I believe Hitler thought this way also.

    November 9, 2011 at 11:29 | Report abuse | Reply
    • gaelowyn

      all right Scott!! You are too correct. These people HAVE NO CLUE as to the dangerousness of these diseases. They haven't lost a baby to whooping cough, measles or mumps. They haven't had to go and buy crutches and braces for their child crippled by polio. They are most definitely the epitome of nosy busy bodies who think way to much of themselves and utter lack of knowledge and understanding of communicable diseases.

      November 9, 2011 at 13:22 | Report abuse |
    • michelle

      @Scott, so what about the parents who gave there children the vaccine and it caused a SEVERE reaction to where some of these INNOCENT children will have to spend the rest of there lifes on pharmacy drugs, therapy, illness that effect there daily life, such as seizures, autisum, pdd, adhd, and etc....so in response to your statement 'I hope the feds come down hard on the family's who do not vaccinate there children', well like I said what about the poor family's who's lifes will forever be changed because of a vaccine? You talk about hitler, is he your ' role model'? You sound just like him. What happened to CHOICE?....I think you need to get your facts straight and stop pointing fingers. May god bless you.

      November 9, 2011 at 16:16 | Report abuse |
    • iscariot

      Wow @michelle? vaccines cause autism now? Even after all the research, court cases, reports, etc? Really? I'd wager you're one of the folks that's into doing this to their kids.

      Do you have a picture of Andrew Wakefield on your wall?

      November 10, 2011 at 07:48 | Report abuse |
  9. Bob C.

    LOL. That's not how chickenpox is spread. The lollipops won't work. Plus, dozens of kids die from chickenpox each year, and a few thousand develop a permanent health condition or disability. That's why there's a vaccine. Chickenpox can be really bad news.

    November 9, 2011 at 11:31 | Report abuse | Reply
  10. ana

    My sister and I had chicken pox when we were young, it was like having flu, it went away. My friend's kids, 4 of them, got the vaccine, they all got sick with chicken pox couple years later, I think it was worst that what I had as a kid. They got exposed to a bunch of chemicals in the vaccines for no reason. I asked my kids' pediatrician not to vaccinate my kids but he insisted and both my kids got fever and virus symptoms. I don't agree sharing the objects with viruses in them, I think we have to let nature deal with our bodies and let our bodies do what they are trained to do.

    November 9, 2011 at 11:40 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Kat

      And I have a friend who had chicken pox and then, years later, developed shingles as a result of having had it, which is a horrible, excrutiating disease that can leave permanent nerve damage and scars. Fever and virus symptoms for a short time are a far better tradeoff than developing shingles at a later date.

      November 9, 2011 at 12:38 | Report abuse |
    • Portland tony

      If your child had a ruptured appendix, you wouldn't be tooting the same horn. Or would you?

      November 9, 2011 at 18:46 | Report abuse |
    • Kate

      Your case of the pox may have been minor, but that does not mean everyone's experiences are the same. If your case was just like "having the flu" then you must have been pretty lucky.

      November 9, 2011 at 21:33 | Report abuse |
    • Nix

      "Fever and virus symptoms" are a normal effect of any vaccine. It is the immune system functioning and doing it's job of creating antibodies.

      November 10, 2011 at 00:07 | Report abuse |
    • Sue Blue

      So you don't believe smallpox was wiped out by vaccines? Maybe you'd like to let your immune system battle it out with that one, too. Sure, you might be the lucky one out of three who survives the disease....and those horrible, pitted scars all over your body, your bald head and blind eyes would only be a small price to pay for a lifetime of immunity. The death of two-thirds of your friends and family from smallpox might be a major bummer, though.

      November 11, 2011 at 19:06 | Report abuse |
    • Mike

      It's people like you who know NOTHING about basic biology and science that scare other idiots into not getting vaccines. Don't worry i wouldn't listen to your doctor who is probably laughing at you for being ignorant and uneducated. Hey I mean you have not the slightest clue how the immune system works or how antibodies are made, but you seem to be a master where it comes to informing people of the dangers of vaccines.

      November 12, 2011 at 05:07 | Report abuse |
  11. Whatnow

    First, why would this be a better method than just getting the vaccine? Second, are these people nuts? This is a totally unreliable method for contracting chickenpox and it is very dangerous to others handling this mail. How self-absorbed can you get? For those who think we just should let nature takes it course, well I hope you won't feel that way when you child comes down with other illnesses. Would you say "let nature take it's course" and avoid the vaccine for diphtheria ?

    November 9, 2011 at 11:55 | Report abuse | Reply
  12. mrbluiis

    "And with your purchase of chicken pox ridden lollipops, we'll also include a very nasty case of Encephalitis."
    I feel sorry for the kids. Kids...what stupid parents you have. Run away as soon as you can!

    November 9, 2011 at 12:05 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Pooh

      where's the dang Like button?

      November 10, 2011 at 07:10 | Report abuse |
    • Christy

      Yes. Obviously they have no clue just how bad these diseases can be. Let one of the "No vaccinations" crowd see mumps up close and personal.

      November 10, 2011 at 12:57 | Report abuse |
    • Jen

      So how do the "no vaccines" people live with themselves when one of their children comes down with a perfectly preventable childhood disease, like, say, whooping cough, and dies? Because it does happen.

      November 10, 2011 at 21:48 | Report abuse |
  13. Arix

    Just like the blunders the gov. did with your money – Is getting ANY kind of vaccine better for you OR let your body build up a natrual immunity. Does the gov really tell you the truth of what's in the vaccine? Is there something the vaccine does that supresses something good in us? I haven't got the flu vaccine for over 15 years and like the song says " I feel FINE!"

    November 9, 2011 at 12:17 | Report abuse | Reply
    • mrbluiis

      So you support Mail Order Disease?

      November 9, 2011 at 12:23 | Report abuse |
    • EdPaul

      Tinfoil Hat ALERT!!!! Oooo...shadowy govt agents covering up what thousands of doctors already know...yeah, it's plausible. Beware they're monitoring your web use...now they're outside you house!!! Run while you can and never post again!

      November 10, 2011 at 08:37 | Report abuse |
    • Christy

      Get a tetnus shot at least. You take OTC drugs, right? They aren't regulated a tenth of what vaccines are. Yep, there are blunders, but just how many drugs have been pulled off the market in the last few years?

      November 10, 2011 at 12:59 | Report abuse |
    • Elizabeth

      EdPaul, yes, the black helicopters are hovering outside. I think that she should leave the kids with a sane person and she should go hide somewhere; hopefully outside of the U.S. so that she doesn't vote here either.

      November 11, 2011 at 00:14 | Report abuse |
  14. arguablybetter

    almost everyone on here had chickenpox as a child and is able to type in a comment and has a natural immunity to the disease. while i don't agree with sending disease via mail, it is a shame we have elected to mainline viruses into our children for a relatively benign sickness. The vaccine wears off, if it works at all, if it doesn't create complications. This means you will have to keep injecting yourself through your life and hope you don't contract the disease when you are older and when it is far more dangerous. the sheep will continue to claim science and give their money to drug companies with a big thank you for saving them.

    November 9, 2011 at 12:31 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Kat

      It is not a relatively benign sickness for everyone – read the comment from the poster above whose young son developed encephelitis as a result. Not only that, but having chicken pox makes it possible for you to end up with shingles later down the line. Why take that risk?

      November 9, 2011 at 12:41 | Report abuse |
    • arguablybetter

      its not a relatively benign vaccine for everyone either – read the news article. And since the vaccine is 70% effective, less than 10 years old, and wears off like all vaccines do, then what is the risk of injecting it directly into your child's bloodstream? does it offset the gain? We don't know if there are any longterm affects. We don't know WHAT the risk may be. If the past three generations of your family all had chicken pox as children and never contracted shingles later in life or had major complications from chickenpox, why the heck would you spin the wheel on a brand new vaccine??

      November 9, 2011 at 12:54 | Report abuse |
    • Cathy W

      But natural immunity to the actual disease wears off after a time, too. If you never want to get Chicken Pox again, you need to KEEP exposing yourself.

      November 9, 2011 at 13:08 | Report abuse |
  15. Cathy W

    My daughter had the first varicella shot, and then before she could get the second, actually caught the disease. Talk about a joke! Her chicken pox was the mildest case I've ever seen. She didn't have a fever, didn't feel sick, and her blisters never crusted over – they reabsorbed instead. So, even though we didn't avoid the disease entirely, it was worth getting the shot in my opinion. We did turn down the later shot as unnecessary.

    November 9, 2011 at 13:04 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Cathy W

      I should say, we turned down the second shot as unnecessary, because she'd also had the disease in the meantime. Between the one shot, and having the illness, her immunity should be fine.

      November 9, 2011 at 13:06 | Report abuse |
    • Elizabeth

      But chicken pox doesn't act like other viruses. You should ask the doctor about this. Chicken pox as a disease can still lead to shingles. The doctor may recommend that your child get a second booster shot later to prevent shingles, but I would just make sure. This disease attaches itself to the DNA of the nerve cells, and can come out later in life.

      November 11, 2011 at 00:19 | Report abuse |
    • guest

      Same thing with my daughter...but she did NOT have the vaccine. Sometimes the cases are just mild. Actually my pediatrician did not give his kids the chicken pox virus.

      November 12, 2011 at 22:34 | Report abuse |
  16. Tryna13

    I agree with most of the comments here...the lolliepops are disgusting and more than likely illigal. But, I think chicken pox parties are fine. My brother and I both went to them and we had no side effects or anything. Actually he caught it twice, but whatever, hes fine as am I. Now, would I bring my kids to one...maybe. I don't know. But, mail order pox, no thank you. I'll pass on that one, thanks.

    November 9, 2011 at 13:37 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Cheryl

      I am glad that your brother and you had no problems from the chickenpox, but some people end up with chickenpox pneumonia, in the ICU, on a ventilator. I wonder if these parents and the people who sent the lollipops could be charged with premediated murder for deliberately exposing the children to a potentially fatal disease, if there is a death as a result.

      November 9, 2011 at 18:53 | Report abuse |
    • Elizabeth

      I had a bad case of chicken pox as a child, but survived fine with some scars. But years later I had a bad case of shingles, almost lost an eye, almost had encephalitis, have continuous nerve pain, gained at least 30 lbs because of nerve changes to metabolism or painkiller drugs, was bedridden as an adult (i.e., couldn't work while I had it), etc. Now rethink those parties. Even if your kids got chicken pox and got over it, you should discuss shingles prevention with their doctor.

      November 11, 2011 at 00:23 | Report abuse |
  17. RS

    Did you know that children in the UK are not even vaccinated against chicken pox? Natural infection from chicken pox has a better than 99.99% complete recovery rate followed by life-time immunity.

    The chickenpox vaccine is not part of the UK childhood vaccination program, because experts think that introducing a chickenpox vaccination for children could increase the risk of shingles in older people. It is used to protect people who are most at risk of a serious chickenpox infection.

    Chickenpox is usually a mild illness, particularly in children. The condition is so common in childhood that most adults who grow up in the UK are immune to the chickenpox virus because they have had it before.


    November 9, 2011 at 14:41 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Elizabeth

      Really? And you are Dr. Who?

      November 11, 2011 at 00:25 | Report abuse |
  18. Sherrie

    That is just really gross seriously..your sharing germs..what if they have mono or it gets moldy along the way..it is really really gross..shame on the parents

    November 9, 2011 at 15:22 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Valentijn

      I agree that it's gross and stupid. But everyone gets mono, just like everyone gets chicken pox. They're both caused by different Herpes viruses, and they both never go away, they just get suppressed usually.

      November 10, 2011 at 07:28 | Report abuse |
    • Elizabeth

      And mono can cause cancer. It's another virus to avoid, like HPV.

      November 11, 2011 at 00:26 | Report abuse |

    what the hell happened to comon sence....now i know why these kids nowadays have none....wow...ppl parents wake up...this is insane....not only is it insane...but u have no idea what ur givin ur kids...u dont know these ppl..u could be givin ur kids herpes...hep a b or c....wake the hell up...n start thinkin...it was hard writin this cause i wanted to be very very harsh..

    November 9, 2011 at 15:38 | Report abuse | Reply
  20. Too Much

    What is wrong with these parents? I wish I could've been given the CP vaccine when I was a child and not gone thru the painful disease as I got a bad case of it. At the very least the vaccine would have lessened the symptoms.

    November 9, 2011 at 16:10 | Report abuse | Reply
  21. Philippe

    this is Idiotic!!!! Ever heard of shingles? I got chicken pox when I was in kindergarten, and most people develop shingles when they get older from having chicken pox as a kid (its the same virus). I got shingles when I was in 6th grade on my nerve belt, which attacked all the nerves leading to my legs and crippled me. I can't feel a huge spot on my back and can barely walk now. I know of other people who have gone blind from getting shingles on their face, even as young as their 20's. Do people not realizing what they are sentencing their kids to?

    November 9, 2011 at 16:52 | Report abuse | Reply
  22. Aucausin

    Alert dumb Parents! If your child becomes infected with Chicken Pox now, later on in life your child won't thank you when they are dealing with Shingles. Chicken Pox is a dangerous infection and not to be taken lightly. If you are adamant about your kids not getting vaccinated (you're dumb but that's your prerogative) the next best option is hoping your child doesn't get infected, not infecting them yourselves. For the love of all things medical educate yourself before making health decisions for your children. Also, the thing with the lollipops is truly disgusting.

    November 9, 2011 at 17:19 | Report abuse | Reply
  23. RS

    Natural infection from chicken pox has a better than 99.99% complete recovery rate followed by life-time immunity.

    The antibody level following natural infection is more than twenty-five times as high as that found in vaccinated individuals when measured fourteen months after exposure. And when they talk about children dying, what the media fails to mention in all these alarmist articles is that most of the children who died from the chickenpox were already immunocompromised.

    Vaccine-induced immunity fades with time, specifically: humoral immunity (Asano, Pediatrics 12/1977; Bogger, J. of Inf. Dis. 8/1982) and cell mediated immunity (CMI) [Gershon JID April, 1990) either drops dramatically or gives far lower levels of protection than natural varicella infection when measured months after vaccination instead of years (when the booster effect has already occurred).

    November 9, 2011 at 17:21 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Aucausin

      Life-long immunity except for a thing called Shingles. The point of vaccination is to avoid ever getting chicken pox, and with boosters it works pretty well. If you get chicken pox as a child you just open yourself up to a Shingles infection later on in life.

      November 9, 2011 at 17:32 | Report abuse |
    • RS

      "Nature has devised an elegant plan for protecting you from the shingles virus.

      After contracting and recovering from chickenpox (usually as a child), as you age, your natural immunity gets asymptomatically "boosted" by coming into contact with infected children, who are recovering from chickenpox. This natural "boosting" of natural immunity to the varicella (chickenpox) virus helps protect you from getting shingles later in life."


      November 9, 2011 at 18:24 | Report abuse |
    • RS

      Not enough data currently exists to indicate whether shingles can occur later in life in a person who was vaccinated against chickenpox.

      November 9, 2011 at 18:38 | Report abuse |
    • Mitch

      @RS please next time get your source from an actual, legitimate, publication... not some "doctor" who posts a computer copy of their license online and then fills their website with nothing but advertisements for his and other's products. Also, your tin foil hat looks stunning, btw.

      November 11, 2011 at 14:36 | Report abuse |
  24. lordshipmayhem

    Please, have these parents charged with child abuse and declared unfit parents. Their vaccine beliefs, empty of science and full of uncritical acceptance of complete bollocks, is risking not just their own kids' lives, but those of their playmates and classmates.

    November 9, 2011 at 18:15 | Report abuse | Reply
  25. RS

    Dr. Bernard Duval, from Laval University in Quebec, and colleagues assessed the age-specific incidence of chicken pox among 2227 fourth grade students. A subset of children with negative or unknown chickenpox histories were tested for anti-varicella antibodies.

    The study was performed to determine the proportion of children that would need to be vaccinated in a catch-up program. Contrary to widely held beliefs, most 10-year-old children with negative or unknown chickenpox histories are actually immune to varicella. Based on the varicella antibody tests, two thirds of these children would be vaccinated "needlessly," the report indicates. Testing before vaccination could identify children who are immune.


    November 9, 2011 at 18:26 | Report abuse | Reply
    • EdPaul

      Incredible that the same folks who shun science and the overwhelming recommendations of health authorities across the board will nonetheless not hesitate to parrot back some scientific paper if they think it helps their case. Stupid is as stupid does.

      November 10, 2011 at 09:01 | Report abuse |
    • RS

      Natural infection from chicken pox has a better than 99.99% complete recovery rate followed by life-time immunity.

      November 10, 2011 at 14:24 | Report abuse |
    • Mitch

      Vaccine immunity vs. natural immunity: you pretty much develop the same antibodies. And yes, the government DOES provide you with all the information about what is in each and every vaccine... if you're too lazy to look, then don't complain. There's a reason for each and every one, and I would definitely take their advice over yours any day. But I wouldn't know, I'm just in med school.
      Again, your tin foil hat looks marvelous.

      November 11, 2011 at 14:39 | Report abuse |
  26. DMB, Atlanta, Ga

    I recieved the chicken Pox vaccine as a child in the late 1950's early 1960's, unfortunately my older sister had already exposed me to the pox, so I got it. let me tell you, it was the worst experience in my life.y folks had to tie my hands to the sides of the bed to keep me from scratching, the fever was so bad that I started hallucinating, I not only had itching but joint pain and looked like i ran into a paint ball tourney. I had boosters in Jr. High and college. My mom made sure my sister and I got shots for whatever was out there, she was a devorced mother with two kids who could not afford for us to get sick any parent who doesn't give thier child the shots whether it's for pox & or MMR should be charged with child abuse and terrorist threats. Part of thier sentences should be to go to countries where the parents can't afford vaccines and see what it does to children and see what could happen to there children. Vaccines are not a magic bullet because the bugs continue to evolve, but can make it milder and less catastrophic. That is why we no longer have iron lungs coming off the asembly lines.

    November 9, 2011 at 19:24 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Nix

      Impossible. Chicken pox vaccine was not introduced until about 1995-1996.

      November 10, 2011 at 00:04 | Report abuse |
    • Valentijn

      Maybe you mean small pox, not chicken pox?

      November 10, 2011 at 07:32 | Report abuse |
    • sally

      My aunt died at 13 in an iron lung from polio because they didn't get the vaccine in time.

      November 10, 2011 at 14:19 | Report abuse |
    • Mike

      Nice try trolling to help win over idiotic mothers to the whole vaccines are dangerous routine. Nix is right the chicken pox vaccine came out in the 90's.

      November 12, 2011 at 05:10 | Report abuse |
  27. Ruby

    People aren't having chicken pox parties to AVOID the vaccine. They're having it for their children to GET chicken pox. Parents have done this for years, way before any vaccine existed. This is nothing new.

    One can avoid the vaccine very simply: don't get it. Period.

    By the way, vaccination exemptions are available in every state: (http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/state-vaccine-requirements.aspx). There's no need to get any vaccines for school.

    November 9, 2011 at 19:24 | Report abuse | Reply
  28. JeffinIL

    I can't fathom not trusting the vaccine but trusting total strangers that could be sending something laced with literally anything and giving it to your child. There are far easier ways to expose your children to chicken pox, like having them visit a kid with chicken pox.

    November 9, 2011 at 19:46 | Report abuse | Reply
  29. LEK

    How stupid!Which is more stupid avoiding the vaccine or intentionally subjecting your child to the virus? If enough kids are vacccinated then most kids that are not will not get the virus.
    Then why would you assume the only thing the pops or other items are contaminated with is chicken pox? Were the kids tested to make sure they don't have some other infection associated with a rash!
    Then why would you purposefully infect your child with chicken pox. As there are reactions to vaccines, there are certainly serious adverse events associated with chicken pox infections.

    November 9, 2011 at 19:56 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Sue Blue

      Exactly! One infection that is associated with a rash and can be spread through saliva is meningococcal meningitis. It can be fatal within 24 hours if untreated. Even with rapid treatment, children often die of this disease, which attacks not only the meninges of the brain, but can cause shock, uncontrolled blood clotting (DIC), and gangrene of the extremities. Huge epidemics of this disease occur in Africa and South America due to overcrowded, unsanitary conditions where impoverished people live in close contact and share towels, clothing and drinking water. It happens here in college dorms where conditions are often the same. Fortunately, we have a vaccine against meningitis! However, it almost goes without saying that these idiots won't let their kids benefit from it. I wouldn't let my kid share a lollipop with anyone, let alone a kid who'd never had a single vaccine!

      November 13, 2011 at 10:18 | Report abuse |
  30. pmk1953

    I didn't catch chicken pox when I was a child. I caught it at 28. It darn near killed me. I was hospitalized for 7 days. I had a fever of 106, my kidneys stopped functioning for 3 days. They were getting ready to put me on dialysis. My fever broke, and luckily within 8 hours I my kidneys started functioning again. I never want to be that ill again.

    November 9, 2011 at 21:01 | Report abuse | Reply
  31. Jason

    Science and logic people. How can anyone in their right mind argue against vaccines? This isn't 1502, the earth isn't round, and doctors aren't practacing alchemy. These are proven, studied, and tested medical devices. Somebody ought to start a rumor that uneducated parents cause autism and see how these Neanderthal parents feel then.

    November 9, 2011 at 21:16 | Report abuse | Reply
  32. matt

    all it will take is for some crazy person with herpes to suck on a lollipop and send it to someones kid...."hunny, why did our son only get one chiken pock near his lip?"

    November 9, 2011 at 21:44 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Valentijn

      But ... chicken pox IS a herpes virus 🙂 And stays around forever, just like Herpes Simplex.

      November 10, 2011 at 07:42 | Report abuse |
  33. CatSh

    Parents have been staging chicken pox parties for ages. Chicken pox is one of those diseases that's mild when you get it as a child, but much, much worse when you are older. Not to mention tragic for pregnant women. Making sure your kid gets it early was a way to not only protect your child from later exposure but to also protect others and pregnant women who may not have had chicken pox as children. The problem with the vaccine is that it may not prevent getting and spreading chicken pox – and too many people still make it to adulthood with no immunity or vaccine. Your vaccinated kid may hardly know they're ill, but the young pregnant woman with no immunity that gets chicken pox from him may lose her child and maybe her life.

    November 9, 2011 at 22:03 | Report abuse | Reply
  34. Zoozo

    Absolutely Agree With You:

    People aren't having chicken pox parties to AVOID the vaccine. They're having it for their children to GET chicken pox. Parents have done this for years, way before any vaccine existed. This is nothing new.>>>>>>>One can avoid the vaccine very simply: don't get it. Period.

    By the way, vaccination exemptions are available in every state: (http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/state-vaccine-requirements.aspx). There's no need to get any vaccines for school.

    Nobody can make me vaccinate(poison) my kids!

    November 9, 2011 at 22:12 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Nix

      Ridiculous. Vaccines are not poisonous, but your self-righteous parenting sure is. Be sure to tell the parent of an infant that just died from pertussis, that your unvaccinated child spread to it, "You're Welcome"

      Do some real reasearch on vaccines, preferable that doesnt come from Jenny McCarthy.

      November 10, 2011 at 00:02 | Report abuse |
    • Zoozo

      I wasnt even bother replying. But FYI I did LOTS of research before I make my INFORMED decision about my kids which by the way are the healthiest our family doctor has ever seen in her 8 years old career, which by the way made her change her opinion on vaccines, made few of my close friends stop vaccinating their kids. And Yes I am very proud for teaching people around me that they have a CHOICE, nothing is guarenteed, there is no magic pill(vaccine) that is gonna fix you forever, with every choice you make you should know the benefits as well the RISKS. All I am saying is Educate before you vaccinate and know all the pros and cons, its your kid and only you should decide what should happen!!!!!!!!! I am very proud of the choice I made for my kids!!!!!!!
      All the best!

      November 10, 2011 at 12:14 | Report abuse |
    • Christy

      Why would you ever think that the CDC would recommend something for your child and the greater good of society if the risk outweighed the benefits??? Vaccines are HIGHLY regulated, much more than any prescription or OTC drug. I would think twice about giving my child an OTC pain killer and not bat an eye when it comes to vaccines. Have you seen what these disease could do to your child and others???? If you are highly informed about vaccines and still decide to not to vaccinate, you either extremely selfish or deluded.

      November 10, 2011 at 12:53 | Report abuse |
    • JeramieH

      Hey Zoozo, did you inform yourself by reading the original published science results from double-blind placebo-controlled trials, and if so, what of their trial methodology or statistical interpretations did you feel was inadequate?

      November 10, 2011 at 13:06 | Report abuse |
    • Mitch

      @Zoozo I can easily assume your kids will regret your parenting decisions when they are older. If not, then thanks for helping us with natural selection!

      November 11, 2011 at 14:43 | Report abuse |
    • Sue Blue

      Zoozo: Because exposing your immune system to the full glory of the unadulterated live virus or bacteria is so much more "natural"? Well, I guess you're right – dying is "natural" too. A pox on those scientists who want to extend the lifespan and disease-free comfort of fellow human beings by taking the bite out of all those natural viruses and bacteria and using them to stimulate your immune system the same way they normally would, except without all the nasty symptoms and possible complications. What a slap in the face to our immune systems, to suggest that it might be abused in such an unnatural way!

      Please grow a brain. Your immune system, and those of the people around you, would appreciate it.

      November 13, 2011 at 13:52 | Report abuse |
  35. Wilson Hall

    What happens if it isn't chickenpox? What if it's smallpox or a new mutant strain of smallpox? These silly women may have just opened pandoras box allowing another anthrax-mail-killer from the CDC or its equivalent from Russia or China an opportunity to reintroduce this scurge upon humanity. Only a handful of physians from around the world can tell the difference between the two viruses and there's not enough smallpox vaccine to go around. These selfish mothers can play God with their own children all they want and watch them die, but when they endanger me and my family, and the lives of the entire world, they should be arrested and convicted as domestic terrorists.

    November 10, 2011 at 08:33 | Report abuse | Reply
  36. Nina

    What a sick idea!

    November 10, 2011 at 10:12 | Report abuse | Reply
  37. Helen

    It had to be from Nashville! I think it sits on one of the bottom rungs of education, obesity and depression in the US.

    November 10, 2011 at 10:44 | Report abuse | Reply
  38. JeramieH

    Maybe the anti-vaccine crowd should do smallpox, measles, and polio that way too.

    November 10, 2011 at 11:01 | Report abuse | Reply
  39. Christy

    Why would someone do this to their child? You never know how virulent the disease will be, what strain that they are given, etc. from a totally different population FedEx'ed to your household! I had chicken pox as an older child (I was 12) and I had never been so sick in my entire life, nor since. If the vaccine were around when I was a child, I would have begged for it!

    November 10, 2011 at 12:45 | Report abuse | Reply
  40. cxd

    Disgusting. Sharing lollipops? Ew.

    November 10, 2011 at 13:20 | Report abuse | Reply
  41. Rob

    I am not against vaccines in general, but I have serious moral issues with some vaccines, because they have been cultured on aborted fetal cells. The chicken pox vaccine is one of those vaccines. I have a hard time with the concept of injecting my child with a substance that was produced through such unethical means. I remember when I discovered the truth about what was in several of the vaccines I recieved as a child, and I asked my grandmother (who was my guardian) how she could allow that to be done to me. I can't conscience doing the same thing to my children.

    November 10, 2011 at 14:51 | Report abuse | Reply
    • JeramieH

      Make no mistake, they would have been discarded either way – so you can choose either to waste them in the trash, or gain some useful benefit from them.

      November 10, 2011 at 15:15 | Report abuse |
    • Sue Blue

      Many vaccines are produced from disease strains that are cultured on chick embryo (NOT human embryo) cells. Varicella is cultured on human diploid lung tissue cells. There is no reason why these lung cells have to come from embryos – in fact the lungs are not yet developed at the embryonic stage. Where are you getting your information?
      By the way, everyone can get a VIS (vaccine information sheet) from their physician or online. The manufacturing process for each vaccine is also widely available. One of the contraindication for getting some vaccines, such as MMR or Influenza, is an allergy to eggs, because, as I said, the virus is cultured in chick embryos.

      November 13, 2011 at 12:00 | Report abuse |
    • Sue Blue

      Also, human cell lines are grown in vitro – a few cells taken from a human source are then grown, generation after generation, in the lab. Do you seriously believe that abortion clinics are mailing out fetuses to vaccine manufacturers? Seems like a lot of effort and expense to exploit a relatively rare source when you can just order a few cells from a lab that grows them on culture medium. Again, it's much easier to take some cells from a lung biopsy in a consenting adult and grow them in a test tube. Your contention sounds like just another anti-vaccine scare tactic. If they can't get you with the government conspiracy tactic, they'll use your religious or moral convictions against you.

      November 13, 2011 at 12:07 | Report abuse |
  42. anobody

    I would be interested in a poll of the people sending and ordering to see how many are reborn.

    November 10, 2011 at 15:36 | Report abuse | Reply
  43. Todd

    Lets make our child suffer needlessly just because some crackpot science put the fear in your head.

    November 10, 2011 at 15:45 | Report abuse | Reply
    • JeramieH

      History shows that it's always been that way though. Since we haven't outgrown it by now, we probably never will... I think it's just human nature. Some people are just going to distrust anything anyone says, except they'll believe the guy selling snake oil.

      November 10, 2011 at 16:01 | Report abuse |
  44. RS

    Here's a video from the UK just for you people who think the chicken pox is anything other than a mild childhood disease. Chicken pox is not small pox or polio.

    I've Got the Chicken Pox song

    November 10, 2011 at 17:50 | Report abuse | Reply
  45. us1776

    Chickenpox as a child will make you susceptible to getting very painful shingles as an adult.

    Better to get the vaccine.


    November 10, 2011 at 19:48 | Report abuse | Reply
  46. Charlie_In_VA

    Absolutely ridiculous, parents playing doctor. Chicken pox is a virus that, once you've received exposure, can come back years later in the form of painful shingles. I was born in '82 so there wasn't a chicken pox vaccine for me, but I wish there had been. Not only is there the possibility of recurrence, there is the very real danger of chicken pox to begin with – I was violently ill when I had it as a kid, with sores not only covering my body, but in my mouth & down my throat, and was left with scarring because of it. Back then, the mentality was "get it early & get it out of the way," but with vaccines, no child has to go through these risks. And, of course, there is the added risk of sending who-knows-what-virus-and-bacteria along with those chicken pox lollipops. Such foolishness.

    November 10, 2011 at 20:14 | Report abuse | Reply
  47. Charlie_In_VA

    Just a quick note to the "I'll never vaccinate my child with your poison!" nuts out there – the only reason your children won't get sick from various diseases is because every other parent out there with some common sense is vaccinating their child. Your child is protected by what's known as the herd effect – if the majority of peole get vaccinated, the few who don't get vaccinated are protected by-proxy by being surrounded by people who have a vaccine-induced immunity who can't get sick in the first place. This, of course, only works as long as the number of intelligent parents who vaccinate their children outnumber the nuts who don't believe in it. And remember, it doesn't always work – even if a child is vaccinated against a disease, they may not get sick from it, but can be an asymptomatic carrier if exposed afterwards. Think it over. A little needle now can save a lot of heartache later.

    November 10, 2011 at 20:20 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Rob

      There is no physical benefit to me that is greater than a clear conscience. I remain grieved that a decision was made to inject me with a vaccine that was cultured on the remains of an aborted child. Some things in life are far more important than good health, and one of them is a mind and heart that is at peace.

      November 11, 2011 at 08:45 | Report abuse |
    • Mike

      I'm sorry Rob, your trailer park manager said to please stop using his computer. Get an education...

      November 12, 2011 at 05:21 | Report abuse |
    • Sue Blue

      Rob, how clear would your conscience be if you or your unvaccinated children contracted measles and spread it to someone who then died of the disease? How do you think the family of the dead person might feel about your sacred conscience? How arrogant and egocentric can you get?

      This scenario is not just hypothetical. As a nurse, I know personally of a child who died at the age of 8 from complications of the measles, which he contracted as an infant (before he was old enough to get the vaccine). He was exposed to an unvaccinated child who was in the contagious prodromal period (before symptoms are apparent) of the disease. Although the infant recovered from the initial disease, the virus remained in his central nervous system, as many viruses do. It caused a fatal degeneration of the brain known as subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE). The parents of this child watched their only son die over a period of weeks because one parent, years before, had not vaccinated their child.
      Please remember that no one is an island. When you think you are making decisions for yourself, you are affecting – in a very real, tangible way – everyone around you.

      November 13, 2011 at 12:57 | Report abuse |
    • Sue Blue

      By the way, Rob, did you read my post (above) in reply to your concerns about human embryos being used for vaccine production? Go back up and read it. Do some real research on real scientific websites, such as Medline, PubMed, the CDC and NIH websites, and numerous virology journals. That is....if you can read them. If not, check out Biology for Dummies and wade through it. Making informed decisions involves actually being informed, not just allowing scare tactics by those with religious and political agendas to sway you.

      November 13, 2011 at 13:09 | Report abuse |
  48. RS

    mmunization with the varicella vaccine (or chickenpox vaccine) – now recommended in the United States for all children between 18 months and adolescence – can protect children from getting chickenpox. People who have been vaccinated against chickenpox are less likely to get shingles because the weak, “attenuated” strain of virus used in the chickenpox vaccine is less likely to survive in the body over decades. NOT ENOUGH DATA CURRENTLY EXISTS TO INDICATE WHETHER SHINGLES CAN OCCUR LATER IN LIFE IN A PERSON WHO WAS VACCINATED AGAINST CHICKENPOX.

    November 10, 2011 at 21:27 | Report abuse | Reply
  49. ila

    HAven't done the lollipop thing, but it is definitely better to rely on the natural immunity for this joke of a childhood disease(it's not polio, or even measles). Of course, vaccine manufacturers and big government will tell you vaccinate for flatulance too once they develop the vaccine for it. But if you have daughters who rely on vaccine immunity while pregnant, well, they are taking a big risk. Only natural immunity through the disease can give you peace of mind if you are pregnant and come in contact with chickenpox. And, fear not, it is no where near eradicated from the world, economically unfeasible to vaccinate for chickepox in Africa, when so many deadly vaccine-prevenatble diseases are still existent, so exposure can happen any time if you travel. In Eastern Europe, most kids get it before age 5 and do not blink. If you get it at an older age, which is what the vaccine promotes, it's a whole different, painful ballgame.

    November 10, 2011 at 21:35 | Report abuse | Reply
    • Mitch

      @ila please, tell me how much vaccine manufacturers make in a given year off their sales from vaccinations (any vaccination... I'll let you take your choice!). The answer: not freakin' much at all. Reason: you only have to get a vaccination once to a few times in a lifetime. There is no profit to be had with the expenses put into it. But it is, however, more beneficial than natural immunity. Take a pharmacology class for once and get back to me (which is sort of a requirement in order to pass med school... which I am in).

      November 11, 2011 at 14:48 | Report abuse |
  50. Liz

    When I first heard this story I was horrified. Now after some thought, I dont even believe it. I simply do not believe anyone would do this. I'd be willing to bet a LOT that we will later on find out this never happened.

    November 11, 2011 at 21:06 | Report abuse | Reply
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