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October 4th, 2011
07:35 AM ET
Study supporting gay conversion challengedA study designed by professors from two religious universities says that some people can change their sexual orientation after undergoing years of a ministry program. “Evidence from the study suggested that change of homosexual orientation appears possible for some and that psychological distress did not increase on average as a result of the involvement in the change process,” wrote the authors of a study published in The Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy. The authors are both psychologists who work at religious universities. Stanton Jones is a psychology professor and provost at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois, and Mark Yarhouse is a professor of mental health at Regent University, in Virginia Beach, which was founded by televangelist Pat Robertson. Their study findings have been challenged by other researchers who say that the bulk of the existing evidence indicates that sexual orientation does not change. Gay advocacy blogs have also disputed the findings. Jones and Yarhouse's study followed 65 participants over a course of six to seven years as they attended Exodus Ministries, a religious program for “individuals and families impacted by homosexuality.” The individuals who attend the program seek to achieve “freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ,” according to Exodus. “It’s a study for people who are highly religious who are distressed by the experience of attraction,” Yarhouse said. “They want to know, is it even possible? What might I experience if I go into religious-based ministry?” Initially, the study enrolled 98 individuals, but 35 dropped out of the program. Some who quit the study said they had been “healed of all homosexual inclinations,” and one person had re-embraced his gay identity, according to the study. The courses were offered in 16 locations around the United States and met in small groups, spending time in prayer and reading the Bible. The study authors followed "the change process" of the participants by conducting annual interviews, asking the same questions about sexual attraction, emotional or romantic infatuation and sexual fantasies. They used scales devised by sex researcher Alfred Kinsey and another measure called Shively-DeCecco scale. Jones and Yarhouse's hypothesis was that sexual orientation is changeable. After following the participants for six to seven years of the religious program, they concluded that 23% of the remaining people in the study were successful in changing their sexual orientation toward heterosexuality. And 30% turned toward chastity, which Yarhouse said was “a reduction from homosexual attraction.” Also, 23% did not respond to the ministry’s treatment, 20% embraced their gay sexual orientation and the remaining percent reported confusion. “The findings of this study appear to contradict the commonly expressed view that sexual orientation is not changeable,” the authors wrote. The American Psychological Association declared in 2005 that homosexuality was not changeable. The association had also stated that there was no evidence that conversion or reparative therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation was safe or effective. “The APA was making pretty strong statements that orientation really doesn’t change and that attempts to do so would be harmful,” said Yarhouse. “They were presenting absolutist claims about this immutability of orientation and great risk of harm. They were ideal questions for research. Can people change? Or is it truly an immutable characteristic?” Eli Coleman, professor and director of Human Sexuality at the University of Minnesota Medical School was skeptical about the findings. “We’ve been through this over and over,” he said. “You can get behavioral changes, but that’s not orientation change. You can get short-term behavioral change. It’s not sustained.” Yarhouse emphasized that his findings followed the participants for several years. He acknowledged that there are many in the LGBT community who find religious conversion programs “deeply offensive.” But he said there are gay people who wish to change and do not embrace the gay identity or the gay community. “I’d like to see mental health organizations to show greater respect for diversity for how a person chooses to live their life and live this out,” Yarhouse said. The study could be confusing sexual identity and sexual orientation, which are distinctly different, said Dr. Jack Drescher, an associate professor of psychiatry at New York Medical College. Sexual orientation refers to whom a person is attracted to, and in most cases, does not change, he said. But sexual identity is how a person feels about his or her orientation and sexual feelings, Drescher said. For example, a man may feel strong attraction to males, but he may not self-identify as gay. He could change the way he identifies himself, whether it’s gay or straight throughout his life. But his sexual orientation does not usually change. "I don’t think we have anything really new here," said Coleman. "We have known for sometime that some people are able to shift their behavior and their perception of their sexual identity through these attempts at conversion." Drescher said the majority of the existing scientific evidence doesn’t support the latest study's findings. “I think the authors have a bias and I have a bias,” Drescher said. “Everybody has a bias. That’s why we have accumulation of data – and that doesn’t support their data.” “There are peer-reviewed studies in the literature and the sum of all the literature does not indicate these treatments are effective,” he said. “If one study comes out that seems to contradict the bulk of the scientific research that proves that people can change - that’s interesting, can they replicate it?” Drescher also said that the study doesn’t explore whether bisexuality played a role in the reported sexual orientation changes. He disagreed with the findings that religious therapies do not harm people, saying he had several patients who blamed themselves after failing programs and fell into depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts. “They’re told it’s up to them if they don’t change,” Drescher said. “When it fails, as it fails in majority of cases, they feel like failures, after they’ve spent time and effort and money. “Some of these people, on the advice of therapists, get married, then they have kids. Gay people have been getting married. When they get married, they don’t change. What do they do, stay married? It’s a complicated issue.”
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I have a program that in just two weeks can change an evangelical Christian zombie into a free thinking atheist.
luv it!
Really? What's with all the Christian hate nowadays? What do they do? I mean, I'm agnostic, but really, As far as can tell, the 2 reasons i can think of is that 1. You genuinely believe the misconception that every Christian in the whole world is evil and out to get you to convert, give up the freedom of having "fun", and you spend the rest of your life in a church praying, or 2: You feel mighty brave behind your computer screen. Funny thing is, I don't see much hate toward the Muslims. Is it because you are okay with the religion, or is it because you are afraid to say it's a stupid or evil religion?
I have a program that in just two weeks can change a zombified member of any organized religion into a free thinking atheist.
Well Z maybe it's because people get into powerful positions and make decisions that adversely affect the lives of millions based on bronze age ideology and the whispers of invisible sky people.
Z – because at least the militant Muslim extremists are honest about hating you. Christians like to hide their intense hate of gays and people different than themselves behind a false mask of compassion and morality. Hypocrisy infuriates me.
Z this artical aint about musilims and ya the are a phukn crazy as evangelical christians, anyone who uses the Power of God to force an agenda is an @$$whole.
What scares you so much about God? As an atheist, you have more faith than I do. You're willing to believe that everything in the universe, including yourself and your family, is meaningless, and intentionless.
God loves you, friend, and he created you. Accept that, and it will change your life.
Let me guess: You put their brain in a Waring blender?
Z. I think a lot of the "Christian hate" you're seeing is a backlash against all the intolerance and hate-speech that we've been getting from Christians. I don't really have any religious affiliation, because I'm frankly pretty confused about the whole thing, but I know for sure that organized Christianity turns me WAY off because of all the self-righteous hypocrisy and outdated ideology they spew. I kinda like the teachings of Jesus, but I'm not seeing those those sentiments of tolerance, charity and compassion coming from very many Christians these days. I'm sure there are some decent ones out there, but the truly repulsive types are louder and they're poisoning the well.
AL nailed it.
It's not that they fear what they don't understand, it's that they don't like it so they want to convince people it is evil. It IS bronze based ideology except back in those days people were killed over this. That misconception has sadly remained over the millenia.
The biggest reason why they shove this down everyone's throats is that they, Christians, are told to "witness to others the power of Jesus Christ." Many people would prefer to live their lives as they please and not have religion or other people's beliefs forced onto their everyday lives. Sadly, again, many of the seriously devout Christians feel that even though this country was built on many freedoms, including freedom of religion, that it is their responsibility based on the Bible and the chances of going to heaven are solely linked to them telling others to pray and go to church.
I'm gay, I live in Alabama, and I see this EVERYDAY. As a child, I grew up going to a Baptist Church every Sunday. I grew up thinking that being gay was wrong, but I questioned why I felt as such. I prayed and still felt the same no matter how much I tried not to. After High School I joined the military to help me curb those thoughts due to DADT. I've been separated from the military for nearly 2 years now and I've since stopped going to church because of the hypocrisy of many Christians (about 75% at least) that I see that are either A) Sunday Christians, or B) they feel they have to inform you EVERYDAY that you need to do as a book, written by supersticious men thousands of years ago, feels that you should lead your life. I'm not saying the Bible is a bad book because there are countless morals you can learn from reading it, and I've read it three times.
My point is this, if you don’t like it or don’t believe in it, then it doesn’t mean that everyone else should feel the exact same way. I’ll reference back to what I said. This country was built on many freedoms. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are two of them. If someone so chooses to not believe, then so be it. It’s their life, let them live it. You have the right to do as you please and so should they.
We shouldn’t be letting religion run this country anymore.
(2nd time trying to post this...)
Al & Otherside: Well said. I feel the same way you guys do. And after traveling abroad and looking at our country from a distance, sometimes we seem pretty silly. The hatred that comes from the religious (Jews, Christians, Muslims) is responsible for most of the ills of this world. The true messages of these religions is lost in the details.
@truthtalker I am embarrassed for you. Do yourself a favor and try to not type such an inaccurate cliche that you look like a complete moron.
dude rob can't spell. lol type 'article' again, look at your fingers when you type boss.
man, everyone tries to push their beliefs on everyone. people oughta have a beer together or something. hahaha p.s. rob still cant spell
Athiesm is just another religion, another cool group for people to belong to. A bucket that you probably chose to put yourself into. Consider yourself just as negated as a "religious" person. If you want to be truly "free", my experience has taught me to let go of all the hate you hold inside for others, and accept that most of us are just trying to be good people.
AL, people love to talk about Jesus' teachings and say that Christians don't follow them, but that displays ignorance of Jesus' teachings. Take a look at the book of John, and you'll see that throughout Jesus makes claims to deity, but doesn't talk much about charity, tolerance etc. So if you like the teachings of Jesus, do be believe that he is God? Or is it you who is inventing the kind of Jesus you want to follow?
To ask one who does not believe in god why they are scared of him, is like asking why are you scared of unicorns and dragons. To all of the true believers I have to say it is very odd to live in a world where bat**** crazy is socially acceptable. I gave up on trying to explain why the concept of religion is ridiculous because frankly you can explain to a schizophrenic person that their delusions aren't real all you want, but that doesn't make them any less insane.
namenamename: Dude, are you serious??? OK, for charity, how about Matthew 19:21 where Jesus says, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." For tolerance, how about Matthew 7.12 or 7.1-5 "Do unto others as you would have done unto you..." and "Judge not, lest you be judged..." I don't really understand how you can claim that Jesus never preached tolerance and compassion. Have you even cracked open the book???
If these so-called "Christians" would simply mind their own business, there wouldn't be an issue. They fear what they don't understand, and are more interested in perpetuating the mythology of the middle ages than living in the modern world.
Correction, they don't care to understand.
Your sweeping generalizations are ignorant. Please go back to work.
HEY CORRECTION, he wasen't that "general" Your an idiot your comment fits the religious right more than anyone else.
You mean the "myth" that men playing around in other men's rectums is sick?
If you can comprehend this: maybe the gay person SOUGHT the Christians and ASKED to be changed????? I've never heard of any organization kidnapping and forcing to change peoples orientation. Only those that have been treated know if it works or not!
If the gays would mind their own business and don't force the rest of us to accept them as normal. I would have no problem. Alcoholics don't go around saying they are normal. But nowadays in this culture you say something against gays and you're immediately insulted. What people do in their bedroom is their own business, don't force me to accept it as OK. Is adultery OK? Is stealing money OK?
Mike, mike, mike. Poor boy. I can tell that you are angry. Your argument is invalid. Alcoholism, stealing, etc are not the same as being born a certain hair. Perhaps your argument would be better if you compared being gay to having red, brown or blonde hair. Now do you understand? We aren't trying to force anything down your throat (trust me), rather, we are sick of you forcing your idea of "normal" down ours.
pink socks
@jetw: How condescending of you. You obviously have everything figured out. I am angry: Angry about with permissive society is doing to this country. "Your argument is invalid.?" How do you know that there's no genetic component to alcoholism or stealing? You are trying to force to accept your like style. Else why are people getting fired for criticizing gays? Or getting fired because they will not perform gay "marriages"? Isn't that forcing a lifestyle on our society?
Mike, I'll tell you this. If you met me in person, you'd never know I'm gay. My arguement for this entire thing is this. Straight people are allowed to show affection in public. Why shouldn't gays be allowed that same right without being chastised?
@rob, hey man... you really can't type or something boss. its pretty cool, but at the same time it makes reading comments akward. cause everyone is arguing but then i read your argument, and its just all these misspelled words and attempts to make cuss words. its really strange. but keep doing it, its pretty cool to look at
dude using big word doesn't make you sound all that smart guys... it confuses dudes like rob, who can't spell, but he's a cool dude man. have a good day guys.. don't hate eachother so much man. dude. dude. man.... like its just life. love your fellow human beings guys, you may not agree with them but life isn't about yourself, its about everyone around you. people are broke down man, they have fears and insecurities and take everything to be meant as an attack on their beliefs dude.... like... just quit hating eachother man. you guys are cool people. signed, Carbonated Water.
Common folks religion try to convince that there is a talking snake out there and there followers believe it. In all due respect, there are profession that are most often inaccurate than not and they are psychologist and economist. They rely on unproven and unreliable parameters that more often confusing with disastrous consequences.
Very good job of cut and paste. Now go try to have an independent thought.
Where did he cut and paste from...? You literally have no other response to that than "try an independent thought?" Come on don't talk if you can't carry on a conversation, you might as well have said "I know you are but what am I"
"Genetic Fallacy. This is a special type of reductive fallacy in which the single issue focused on is the source or origin of an idea. The argument demands, "Something (or someone) should be rejected because it (or he) comes from a bad source."(1)
Please approach all studies objectively
(1)Ronald Brooks;Norman Geisler. Come, Let Us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking (p. 86). Kindle Edition
Actually, that isn't a fallacy at all, especially in the scientific world. When your source study comes from a source(a university founded by PAT ROBERTSON lol) that has been known to lie, make up bulls**t, and basically engage in constant unethical research standards, you can't trust anything they do anymore.
Even if if this research looked on paper like it was conducted scientifically(which it doesn't), you can still make a quite sound argument that you can't trust anything that comes out of that university anyway.
This is also why we have peer review in science. The peers have reviewed it, and found it to be a stinking pile of crap.
False premise-"A false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of a logical syllogism. Since the premise (proposition, or assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn may be in error"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise
Approaching all studies objectively does not mean assuming that they are true and done properly. Most published studies turn out to be incorrect in some or many ways. The researchers publishing this have a massive ideological bias that throws considerable doubt on their findings. The fact that their findings also contradict the scientific consensus means that this study is almost certainly the outlier and will never be replicated.
Whether or not the findings of the study can be replicated is the only determinant of whether or not its conclusions are valid. If they cannot be repeated it is not a valid study. This has nothing to do with being biased from the outset. If ANY new study shows up that contradicts the existing body of work then for it to be accepted its results must be able t be duplicated; if it cannot be then the results are invalid regardless of what your pastor, bible, God or anyone else says.
Respectfully, what logicians have you to cite that can corroborate what the genetic fallacy is or is not? Thank you.
The way some Christians talk about the bible, christianity and religion you would think you were listening to a fairy tale, or some mysterious magical place, where all your wishes came come true or if you say the magical words, spell or hold the magical book and embrace the most powerful one then you will have all that you desire. If it sounds ridiculous, well that's becuase their interpretation of christianity is. You might as well believe in the fantasy books.
It is a fantasy book. The original fantasy book. It is an epic adventure of war, greed, love, and hate. Then they added the sequel about the Jewish space zombie that couldn't be killed and will come back in his spaceship just as the world is on the brink of destruction, to save the "good" ones. What a tale!
Human beings like to have control, but we can't control earth quakes or tidal waves or tornadoes, so we invent mystical beings that CAN control those things and keep us safe from harm, if only we can win His favor by saying the right words, or hanging out in the right building at the right time. Some carry it further and kill or even start wars in the name of their deity. It's absurd.
Yeah, because all atheists are geniuses, right?
Wow Reagan, your rebuttal might as well have been "Oh yeah? well...shut up!" The difference between those who are religious and those who are not is more about gullibility than intelligence. I've known many people of genius IQ who were extremely gullible and many idiots who were quite skeptical.
At your innermost core of existence, you are who you are. No amount of "therapy" will change that. Controlled yes, changed no.
So I guess straight people can pray their way to being gay?!
Yeah, if you're praying to Satan.
I laughed when I read that reply because it's a funny response, but I laughed even harder when I realized you were actually serious.
So I guess these professors at these universities were once gay, they tried it, and it worked? If not, they should not speak of something they obviously know nothing about!
Jesus Christ is Lord!
What century are you living in? I think you need to go back to the middle ages to find your "lords" and "kings".
Ya and being Lord he has bigger fish to fry, no pun intended, than worrying what you're phukn.
Troll
Could you be more specific? Lord of the rings? Lord of the dance? Lord of the flies?
jrh, you sound like you are the one who is scared about what you don't understand about Christianity. stop decieving yourself and embrace Jesus Christ. Most people discover the truth when it is way too late........
Shhh... Some of us don't waste our life on that magic.
I was a Christian for most of my teenage years. I've found that I am much happier, and actually more ethical as a person without religion in my life. That is because I accept people for who they are instead of what I think they should be due to what the bible says. Judigng others is a "sin" as well according to that book you look up to so much.
Jesus Christ brought no light into my life at all, and also brought no truth. Well, other than seeing a congregation for what it really is.
OMG! After reading your post, I became very quiet. And I began to pray. And now I am not gay anymore! Thank you Jesus for coming into my heart and saving me from a world of sin and bringing me into the fold of hypocrites! Now I can produce babies for you to make more Christians who can give more money back to your church here on earth! Aren't you pleased with me now, and will offer me eternal life in heaven?
steveo, i was raised in the extreme fundamentalist, church of christ! I completely agree with you. All religions are responsible for most of the ills of the world...and looking back in history, have been responsible for most major world conflicts. Interesting to me how quickly people pick up the sword/gun in the name of Jesus.
@jetw: WWI, WWII were not started by religions. Stalin, Mao and the Khmer Rouge killed people without any assistance of religion. Yes, many wars have started because of religion. Probably because people tend to defend what they believe is important: Civil War?
Next they'll have a study called "Better Life Through Alchemy."
Looks like CNN has lied by pre-screening comments with filters. How one sided is that!
Hmsxlty – Test to see if this word makes it out there.
You're right. I just replied to you using the full spelling of the word, and it didn't work for me either
Ya and I can be cured of the fact that as a hetro male I CANNOT STOP THINKING ABOUT PU$$!E...how phukn stupid can these guys be.
you are gross
“I’d like to see mental health organizations to show greater respect for diversity for how a person chooses to live their life and live this out,” Yarhouse said.
Says the guy that is trying to research how to "undo the gay". H-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e.
Jesus has never cured/repaired an amputee, why would the miricles start with gay people?
And you were with Jesus everyday so you know this for a fact? Bible says he performed many many other miracles that weren't written about.
And so what if your orientation can change? What's the big deal? These h_o_m_o groups are extremely narrow minded
I like beer. I have not always liked beer but my father drank beer and it made me want to like beer. When I had a chance to drink beer I did so even though I didnt like it originally but after drinking it I got used to it and then I liked beer. Now beer is comfortable even though originally I didnt like beer.
I like women. I have not always liked women but my father liked women and it made me want to like women. When I had a chance to "like women" I did so even though I didnt like it originally but after "likeing" it, I got used to it and then I liked women. Now a women is comfortable even though originally I didnt like women.
You can change the operative nouns any way you choose from how I liked men because I once saw a man I admired liking men or whatever you choose to use and it would still be true, but my point is if your listenning, are you listenning?
Those who have ears to hear will listen. Most ears are full of their own words.
non sequitor anecdotal evidence. What about straight men who didn't know their father, how do you explain that? What about gay men who did know their father but their father was straight? Likening the development of a taste for lager and inborn traits are not the same thing. If your father has brown hair and so do you is it because you liked brown hair and decided to grow it? Doubtful.
Stop typing dribble. You are not listening again. The father was the reason that "I" like beer and women. But not the only reason. If you like one thing its becuase you learned through one means or another not to reject it.
" Something very small can make a meek man dangerous." Now think of all the variations of this statement.
So they're brainwashing gay people to act straight?
Why can't they just say that instead of all this mumbo jumbo.
Very true, I totally agree, but acting straight and being straight are totally different things.
If I was GY I'd want to be brainwashed to be straight too....but then again I'm just saying that cause I am straight. LOL.
Wont let HTROsxlty either...at least they are fair
You can say "gay" but you can't say the "h" word because it has the "se_" word in the middle. Strange!
Was Michele Bachmann's husband in the study?
He!! No! she is a sweet piece of @$$.
And people wonder why the rates of HIV keep increasing. Stigma leads to unsafe behavior. Ignorance breeds hate. I can't even read this kind of ridiculous mumbo jumbo.
No gy gene found in the Genome Project. No scientific/medical "markers' to be found either in all these years of study. Biologically gy BEHAVIOR makes no sense either as the prime human biological objective is reproduction and propogation of the species. It is deviant abnomal behavior.
I find his sweeping generalization is highly accurate.
Spoken like a good little creatard ID zombie. I bet you wander around wondering why monkeys aren't constantly transforming into humans like an autobot too.
Not finding the "gay gene" absolutely was a major blow to the "gay is normal and i can't help it" argument.
The only avenue left to "legitimize the deviant behavior" is legislation that changes the meaning of words, actions, and beliefs that have been held by human society for ages.
Here is a new Blog for you. Why does CNN filter out the word H_O_M_O_S_E_X_U_A_L on this site?
Evidentlyt this conversion therapy only works if you are a Christian LOL! Does this mean we have to convert everyone to that religion before they can become straight?
Ahhhh...you have seen the light, my son. Go forth and multiply...
Has Andersen Cooper tried this program yet?
Wheaton College graduation day.
Degree awarding Dean: Congratulations my boy. Do you believe in God?"
Graduating Student: "Absolutely, without question sir."
Degree awarding Dean: Then here's a PhD for you.
Degrees from religious Universities like Weaton aren't worth the paper they are written on, everyone knows that.
Actually, this is false. I got a degree from Wheaton, then went on to get a PhD in Mathematics from a public university. To be honest, the PhD was not more difficult than the Bachelor's degree I received at Wheaton. Wheaton offers a very rigorous curriculum and prepares its students well to become scholars and leaders.
H_O_M_O_S_E_X_U_A_L_A_L_I_T_Y is Sin – Test to see if this get's filtered out.
Uh, the only thing that *needs* to get filtered out is Your Way of Thinking, my friend!
.............and the void in your life is filled by what exactly ?
Ouuu TG baby, your ears would start burning if I told you what my "void" was exactly filled by!
Unless and until I see these so-called Christians living by every law set down in Leviticus, I'm not going to take anything they say on this subject seriously. They can't ignore a dozen "sins" only to focus on this one.
Fornication, Adultery, Drunkard – Test to see if this get's filtered out.
I guess the filter is only allowing the unintelligent comments through.
Now that's funny. Thanks for the laugh!
It appears the word P_R_O_S_T_I_T_U_T_E is another one being filtered out by CNN.
A Bad Photo can be a Good PictureTo your question, Yes and no. I'm not sure that good sujbect matter saves a bad photo. A bad photo is a bad photo, but that doesn't mean that it has no value or quality. A bad photo can still be a good experience. I have a lot of pictures that are technically bad (maybe all of them). They are not good photos, but they evoke good memories, good feelings, warm emotions, strong feelings.I sometimes have visceral responses to images, shapes, experiences that would not reach levels of art. Maybe we can draw a distinction between a "picture" and a "photo" in the same way my wife distinguishes between "movies" and "films", a little of a fun experience vs. high art feel? I take a lot of pictures. Some of those are good pictures, evoke good memories or strong feelings. Very very few of my own would be considered good photos.
Looks like Q_U_E_E_R is another one being filtered out.
You're Obsessed by LGBT people aren't you!
wonderful, merciful savior, blessed redeemer and friend,
who would have thought that a lamb could
rescue the souls of men, oh he rescues the souls of men
Selah really had it right with these lyrics, youtube their song "wonderful, merciful, savior"
Wow. Jesus loves you all.
Super duper TROLL
He doesn't love the Hindus, Buddhists, Ba Hai, Muslims or Taoist – they all receive an eternity of torture.
@truthtalker
I'm glad you one of the fruits who's been taught and believes you're broken w/o Jesus. what are you 12?
Death, Destruction, Demon, Evil – Test for Filter.
This isn't a "study", it's nonsense.
Exorcist, happy, gay, – Last test then I'm done.
We've had the ability to accurately and affordably test people's $e xuality in a lab setting since the 1950s. And in all that time, not one person has ever been able to show that their $e xuality changed during the course of their lifetime. Not from g@ y to straight, not from straight to g@ y, not even from g@ y to bi $exual. Not through theraputic means and not through religious means. Also, there have been tons of studies done on ho mo$exuality – if it was a choice there would be precursors to that choice leading someone to want to be attracted to the same g3nder or leading them to actually having attraction for the same g3nder – yet not one study has ever found any precursor or cause.
Of course "straight" men who know they'll get an e r3ction or at least a partial e r3ction when looking at pictures of ho t men, will claim such testing is inaccurate, lol.
Don't rule out the big discount srotes like Walmart and Target. We have a BJs in our area or other similar options are Costco and Sam's Club. These are about your cheapest resources.
Truthtalker, what scares you so much about reality? As an claimed religious person, you have more faith than I do. You're willing to believe that everything in the universe, including yourself and your family, is meaningful, and intentional, and here to comfort you and protect you from reality. Reality loves you, friend, and it created you. Accept that, and it will change your life.
realitylover,
Since you love reality, be introduced to the reality that God loves you, my friend, and that He did so much that he sent his son Jesus to die for your sins, so you can spend eternity with the Lord.
@truthtalker – Yes and chi ld mo lesters who repent and accept Christ go to heaven while Hindus who have shoplifted and made the mistake of getting God's name wrong go to he 11. I'd rather be in he 11 with my Hindu friends.
@truthtalker – Y e s and chi ld mo les ters who repent and accept Christ go to heaven while Hin dus who have sho plifted and made the mistake of getting Go d's name wrong go to he 11. I'd rather be in he 11 with my Hin du friends.
Exodus 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
Leviticus 25:44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and r@pes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
1 Timothy 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
Patrick,
Good discussion. Truthfully, all of us are sinners by definition since as scripture says we have all fallen short of the Glory of God. Check out Exodus 20 and be honest with yourself about whether you have kept all God's commands. His commands are for our safety and protection, much like we give rules to our children for their benefit. But the good news is that the story does not end there. God loves us so much he made a plan to overcome our imperfection, he sent Jesus Christ. John 14:6 Jesus says I am the way, the truth, and the life, nobody comes to the Father except by me.
So if you're a sinner with some pretty bad stuff in your past, a hindu, or a guy named Patrick, everyone has the same opportunity to call on the name of Jesus for their salvation.
@truthtalker, everyone may have the "opportunity" to call on Jesus for salvation, but the truth of the matter is that Hindus, billions of people, are 95% more likely to believe in the religion they were raised in. So salvation by your definition and under your God, is based mostly on Geography.
Patrick,
The bible is the most translated book in the history of the world and is being translated into new languages everyday. The internet spreads the truth of Christ to every corner of the world. Missionaries are spreading the truth of God as we speak. My friend, the truth of Christ is not limited to geography.
@truthtalker- if you don't acknowledge that geography is the most major factor since 95% of the people raised in a particular religion are going to stick with that religion – then you're just lying to yourself.
Patrick,
Jesus is the light of the world.
True, there is a lot of darkness in the world, and there are geographical locations that are much darker than others. But that doesn't change the fact that the truth of Jesus brings light everywhere. Once somebody has seen that light, why would they want to continue to live in the darkness? The light of truth knows no boundaries. This is a universal truth that is spreading throughout the world like wildfire. No existing culture, tradition, or belief system will be able to stop it. Those that have tried (China, Iran, and countless others) have failed. If you live here in the U.S., thank God that you have the freedom to read the bible, and take it very seriously that you do. God has blessed you with the ability to read and believe his truth. You should.
Guys
Why even engage this nut nut. To discuss even an instant on religion is a complete waste of time. NEXT!
So the university is not really a university because it was founded by Pat Robertson. The professors are not really professors because they are Christian. The study is not really a study because the outcome doesn't sound right.... Do u people really hear what you are saying between the lines. It sounds like garbage to me.
It's not a study because you can easily test a person's $e xual attractions in a lab but they refuse to. They want to base it on "interviews". Dumb.
Um, Mike have you ever taken a science course? It doesn't sound like it...you know, there is this thing called "BIAS"....ever heard of it? LOL
A Christian University (especially, one under the watch of an egocentric bible-thumper like Pat Robertson) will have a tendency to offer and teach only a limited world view. "University" indicates the inclusion of the full breadth of Knowledge, where Christianity imposes or asks Its followers to subscribe to a narrow band of Reality. A true University must offer unobstructed access and fairly instructed studies in every manner of worldly and otherworldly subjects. If a University is religion based, the Universe it offers is within the scope of the doctrine – and if that's all a student wants to learn, it's fine. It doesn't make the school less professionally instructed or the courses inferior – it simply limits the scope by putting on blinders to all concepts, philosophies and the greater Reality outside the doctrine.
What ever happened to scientific study without all the bias (on both sides)? Maybe it never existed and I just did not realize it when I was younger. Either way, this is certainly a valid area of research.
Sure is tons of christian bashing going on. Being gay is a great thing now. Gays even get tuitions paid for by being gay. Great. I hope everyone turns gay, so in a hundred years or so from now they won't all be able to throw insults to the person who taught more about morals then any other in history. You may not believe in the mystical but Jesus exists and he taught love and peace. Sure wish gay would mean happy like it used too.
Try prayer without first assuming you already have all the answers.
Albeit problematic, we put people in jail to "rehabilitate" them. We put psychotics in wards to monitor and help them become more functional in society. We provide treatment to alcoholics and drug addicts through AA and NA, all to change behaviors and improve them. People go to therapy to help them through their lives and to change behaviors. We all know these things. Why going to a version of therapy for someone who wants to change would surprise any of you I cannot understand. I think the real issue here is that being gay or having gay tendencies apparently can be changed by people who wish to change a behavior in themselves, and that there are people out there who will help them. Believe it or not, it isn't only Christians who find this behavior wrong, there are those who define themselves as being gay who also find it wrong. You don't really think those that participated in this study were coerced? What really gets people, I think, is that these few... may be right, making a vocal minority very wrong.
Awesome post. But being gay is what makes them think they are special now, unique, and socially they find friends and belonging. Gangs do the same thing. Self victimisation. balloon, nickel, cup. Sorry was just typing random words. They make bout much sense as the other dribble here.
@Hiyama – There are plenty of people that think they're special and unique without having to claim that they're g@ y. That's ridiculous. If you're g@ y you're exclusively attracted to the same gende r. End of story.
Hiyama, if you think that being ga y makes people feel "special" and is just a plea for attention, which you appear to be implying, how do you explain ga y people who spend their lives closeted? No one knows about their plea for attention, because they don't appear to be doing anything that draws attention to themselves. How do you explain that?
Being ga y is simply being attracted to members of the same s x. It doesn't have any affect on anyone else.
And Dan, behavior that is dangerous or hurtful is the kind that societies seek to rehabilitate. In what way is someone else's attraction hurtful to others?
So Hiyama, let me get this, so to speak, straight. You equate being gay with being a gang-banger, because it makes us feel "special." Then in the next breath, you tell us how the supposed lord of the universe took the time out of his busy schedule to have a chit-chat with you, and only you, and clue you in to the meaning of life. Now isn't THAT special?
Puh-lease. It's tantamount to brainwashing...whether they asked to join the study or were "kidnapped." It doesn't matter whether the "brainwashing" was by one's parents, religion, friends, doctors or one's self, unfortunately some people don't want to or cannot deal with the pain, frustration, hatred, etc of being gay and hope it will be easier to change than stay who they are. I personally don't believe the study however that doesn't mean someone has not suppressed his/her self enough to "be striaght." Seriously who wants to spend "years" in a ministry to change their orientation. I cna't imagine the hell someone has been through in order to believe that is the "better" option. Good luck to all. 😀
Are they using this therapy to change the structure of their brains as well, since that's the only way to (possibly) change these people's orientation? Check out this article in Time Magazine about the hmosxul brain: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1815538,00.html
Keep it in your pants.
Nooo, this would be called "brainwashing" anywhere else. So sick to death of religions.
Sick to death of religion? When your sick at death you'll want one!!
@Hiyama. Which one?
what ever blanket is the warmest
"what ever blanket is the warmest"
That's your indicator of truth?
Truth? What import is truth? My indicator of truth without any sarcasm is the effect of my actions. I prayed once to know who Jesus was, I dreamed of him one night after that prayer and he told me "Dont be afraid, its me Jesus, just have faith". Three years later I saw Veronica's vale. The Jesus I saw was the Jesus in the artifact. My action caused me to have a divine experience.
He told me to "just have faith", I understand its the faith that is important and not the rest because we cannot understand in this life what the truth is.
Well, you know, Hiyama, Druids have mystical experiences, Hindus have mystical experiences, people who take ecstasy have mystical experiences, and Scientologists have...well, Tom Cruise. Presumably, the 9/11 folks got a cosmic visitation from Allah, and it's safe to say that the Nuremburg rallies gave folks a cosmic warm-and-fuzzy.
Honestly, I'd respect all these Jesus visitations if the folks having them had never heard of J.C. beforehand, or if Yaweh got with the 21st century and used YouTube instead of, Freddie-Kruger-like, invading people's dreams.
Meanwhile, I'll seek out rationality, existential choice, and not live my life according to the apparition of a 2000-year-old shmatte. Oh, and I love – really, really love – my boyfriend. Hi, William!
+ + why would they tank iOS on purpose? They are tnryig to create a satisfied solid user base more happy users equals more revenue for Google in the long run. The Android app has issues too, we are still in Beta folks give it time. Success on mobile apps for all platforms is critical to the overall success of G+.
Don't these two universities also teach that the universe is only 6500 years old? Kinda does things to their credibility of any study, doesn't it?
I dont know was you there 6500 years ago? Carbon date my middle finger and tell me how long ago I stuck it up at your arrogance.
@Hiyama – Yeah right, we all know Adam mingled with Tyrannasauras Rex and the talking snake in the Garden, nibbling on mangoes and giggling like schoolchildren.
GET AN EDUCATION.
My point along with my minor sarcasm was that the first sure block to truth is the assumption that you already have it.
@Hiyama – that's hardly a point when you have millions of years of fossil record.
Thats only relevant if the fossils are millions of years old.
These programs are dangerous. God made me and he don't make no junk. I certainly think that the people who run these programs will have to answer for the judgment and abuse of others.
Why can't someone just do a study using basic plethysmography and polygraphy like they use when they're monitoring $ ex offenders?
ANSWER: Because they already have behind closed doors and they didn't like the results.
Straight people who care THIS much about gay people are probably gay people who wish to be straight people. Otherwise, they would not care about proving that you can convert a gay person to being a straight person. I know you can't convert gay people to being straight people, because I could NEVER be converted to being a gay person.
One would think this would be rather self explanatory.
Yeah it's just common sense unless you're bi$ exual. I think that's what's going on with a lot of them.
Patrick, you might be right, particularly with women. Women have been shown (in reliable, reputable studies, unlike this one) to have more fluidity with their orientations. Women are just so social, and they're generally more emotional. It's easier to get involved with either gender than it is for a man.
I wonder how many people who "converted" in this study were men and how many were women?
@Kate – I'd agree. Attractions in men seem more objective. In women they're more situational and emotional. I think there's something in women that can bypass a lack of physical attraction in favor of emotional attraction. Of course though, they still do have physical attraction and would still be confined to having their $e x ual orientation defined by that attraction.