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November 26th, 2010
09:08 AM ET
Secondhand smoke kills 600,000 worldwide annually1 in 100 people around the world die from secondhand smoke each year, a new study reveals, and nearly two-thirds of the deaths occur in children. Health officials have known that more than 1 billion people around the world smoke and 5 million people die each year from tobacco-related illness, according to the World Health Organization. That's about one person dying every six seconds. But just how many people are sickened by secondhand smoke has been less clear, which led researchers to try to investigate how big the problem is. Based on 2004 data gathered from 192 countries, researchers estimate "as many as 40 percent of children, 35 percent of women, and 33 percent of men are regularly exposed to secondhand smoke indoors," according to a WHO study published in the British medical journal The Lancet. "Tobacco use is one of the biggest public health threats the world has ever faced," says the WHO. More than 80 percent of the more than 1 billion smokers worldwide live in low- and middle-income countries, where the burden of tobacco-related illness and death is heaviest. The study authors estimate that 165,000 children under the age of 5 die each year from lower respiratory infections caused by second-hand smoke – and most of these deaths occur in Africa and south Asia. Just two months ago, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released a report that found more than half of children in the United States, between ages 3 and 11 show signs in their blood of exposure to secondhand smoke. Previous studies have found that even extremely low levels of exposure to cigarette smoke produced detectable abnormal genetic activity in these cells. The more than 1 billion smokers are exposing billions of non-smokers to one of the top indoor pollutants according to the WHO. Researchers believe more needs to be done to create complete smoke-free indoor environments at work, in public places and on public transportation. Jonathan Samet and Heather Wipfli, two leading public health experts from the University of Southern California say their research from 31 countries found that 88 percent of parents who smoked did so at home and that over 80 percent smoked near their children. In an accompanying commentary, they emphasize the need for smoke-free homes, which can help lower the number of people sickened and dying from someone else's smoke. Wipfli and Samet say educating and empowering women can make a big difference is protecting children and non-smoking adults from the deadly effects of secondhand smoke. "Few sources of indoor air pollution can be completely eliminated. However, smoking indoors can be eliminated," they say. |
  About this blog
Get a behind-the-scenes look at the latest stories from CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen and the CNN Medical Unit producers. They'll share news and views on health and medical trends - info that will help you take better care of yourself and the people you love. Recent Comments
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You know, of all the smokers and former smokers that I've ever known, all of them have always tried to be as conscientious as possible. They never smoke around their children, always smoke outside...when is enough enough?
Probably not until everything that could ever possibly harm you is illegal. Then we could all hold hands and pat ourselves on the back and marvel at how much better we are than everyone while we drive around in our dorky hybrids.
Thats right. My boyfriend tries not to get his smoke in my face, tries to not smoke too much around me, he doesn't want me smoking at all. His friend actually just got bronchitis, and it was from smoking.
A blatant lie right in the first sentence. Roughly 8 billion people means 1 in 13,333 people may be affected. A rate so low it has little to no value. I suggest the researchers do not know what they are talking about.
... with "second hand smoke" listed as COD.
Death certificates list the name of the disease. They do not go into epidemiology. No one killed in the World Trade Center has on his death certificate "Killed because of bin Laden". So do you think bin Laden was not the cause of those people dying?
Three points on the "conclusions" of this study...
First, this is a statistical analysis, not an actual medical study. It compares supposedly death records and then calculates statistics based on someone's statistical model (formulas). Although statistical studies are useful (assuming the methodology is not "cooked") and may have relevance, it is important to know and consider the difference between actual scientific research and statistical analysis. The latter is nothing more than computer modeling where someone enters a formula and get the calculations.
Secondly, rule one of true scientific research is the ability to "isolate" the factor under study (independent factor or cause, in this case "second-hand smoke) to determine its effect (dependent factor or effect, in this case, death due to exposure). Until the day that researchers can isolate "second hand smoke" from any other element present in the air anyone breathes, a true "cause and effect" relationship cannot be stated. Serious unbiased scientists (no particular agenda one way or another) would report the results as "higher probability" rather than "the" cause of death.
Third, semantics in this discussion matters. The anti-smoking side has been extremely successful at finding "catch-phrases" that suit their argument. Just look at their preferred ones..."second-hand" smoke or "smoking-related diseases". What do they really mean? What exactly does "second-hand" means? Is it smoke exposure within 10 feet, 20, a 100? Is it 10, 20, or 100% of carcinogen and other chemicals on the "smoke cloud"? What exactly does "smoking related diseases" mean? That can be any disease you want to include. Everyone agrees that smoking is not healthy. However its harmful effects are un-scientifically overrated.
"First, this is a statistical analysis, not an actual medical study. "
Statistical analyses *are* actual medical studies.
Why not say "Hey, this paper contains equations, so therefore it cannot be science."
It is very clear that the more secondhand smoke one is exposed to the higher the death rate from numerous diseases, and that this is the case even after other factors like alcoholism, bad diet etc are taken into account.
Smoker 58 years. No smoke related disease. Doctors say it is genetic. My kids all smoke and are in their late 40's to early 50's and no cancer related illnesses. My grandchildren smoke . None had COPD or any related illness to smoking. But Alcohol is a huge factor in deaths in my family. Drunk driver killed my husband and left me with 4 orphans to raise.
It's not about smoking.It's about being able to tax people to death.Why don't they tax alcohol at same rate? The pharmacuetical companies are making billions off of this . The products to quit cost more then cigarettes. The biggest lie being told /not told is Radon Gas is responsible for half the lung and other cancers.But they can't tax Radon Gas. Other chemicals in the air are also responsible. But they can't tax them either. The big lie about cigarettes and tobacco has been told so often that it has now become truth.
I’m so glad your family is all right. I’m just wondering how many innocent bystanders your secondhand smoke has killed or made seriously ill over the past several decades.
You are gravely misinformed. Certain types of cancer are all about genetics, lung cancer in general is not. It is usually caused by carcinogens, which tobacco most certainly is. Talk to a medical doctor insread of the local rumor in your family or town.
So this is the tobacco control industry telling us they need more funding and more power. They'll get it, carry on developing the black market and it justifies their war on smokeless tobacco and electronic cigarettes I suppose.
1. Cigarette's kill.
2. The WHO have a better idea of the correct numbers than of anyone on here.
3. Many more people can be affected from second hand smoke than the actual smoker.
4. It affects developing nations more than developed nations(USA).
Sadly, these numbers sound correct. Being a non smoker, I'm not looking forward to this universal health care crap. I'll be picking up a HUGE tab for people who abuse their body's with tobacco and alcohol products. YAY for Obama! I'll be paying for his medical bill as well.
For Bruce who started this whole mess:
So... YOU don't know anyone who's died from second hand smoke? How about someone who's *lived* with it and had it ruin their life? Over 50 years ago, my mother was diagnosed with esophageal cancer (throat cancer) while pregnant with ME. She never smoked a day in her life. She was told she'd not survive to have me. After a scarring operation (left with half of her vocal cords) she fought, she lived, I was born. She's now 82, has Alzheimer's and has had a lifetime of health problems resulting from the cancer & radiation. Sometimes, she can barely speak above a peep - but most days, she has a smile on her face. Me, on the other hand - I've had physical problems from day one. A tumor on my forehead (age 1) - they told Mom if they didn't radiate me, it would eat into my brain. They radiated my forehead and throat and left my skull and thyroid damaged. I blame the trauma Mom endured while pregnant. I'm not going to list all the damage this did to me, just because someone else (NOT my Mother) had to have a smoke while in her company. I'll just say I battle every day to live with a compromised thyroid, and unless YOU have this problem you can't know how serious this is. I blame my stupid ancestors (both continents) for lighting up in the first place - and I blame each and every smoker who continues to smoke KNOWING what it's doing to OTHER people.
You see... over 50 years ago the Mayo Clinic - no less - told Mom HER cancer came from SECOND HAND SMOKE!!! - THE FREAKIN' MAYO CLINIC, PEOPLE!!! They've known this for years!!!!!
So, unless you can take a puff from that cancer stick, blow it out your a**hole and at least entertain me while doing it - GET YOUR BUTT OUTTA MY FACE!
Am I angry much? You betcha.
OK, everyone has a choice in life. You can smoke or you cannot smoke. If people enjoy smoking then let them smoke! Its our right to the presuit of happiness, and if cigarettes make them happy then by all means good for them. Also another thing in many places its becoming illegal to smoke indoor and is mandatory to smoke outside. So everyone who is getting angry with smokers, you people need to worry about yourself more than criticizing the ways of other.
I'm sorry, Mike. I didn't mean to imply that I blamed every smoker for my little, teeny problems (though I can't lie - I do). I just take offense when the breathable air is taken from me. I simply get a bit angry when someone blows smoke in my face and I have a reaction and quit breathing (I do this).
Maybe to get your attention, I should point out to all smokers: Your smoking not only makes YOU sick, it sickens other people - some of the people you love - YOUR CHILDREN. Would it matter to you more that you're killing your DOGS with this crap??? Probably....
...I'd like to add: I honestly wouldn't mind if all smokers would sit under "Get-Smart's Cone Of Silence" and had all the smoke to themselves. Then it would be just them... having the freedom not to breath. I'm all for freedom.
Thank you Ginny. I'm glad to see there is another voice of reason out there.
I can see your point in explaining the rights of others but you are missing the point allowing people the right to smoke around other people is the point that we are making when we say second hand smoke is worse than smoking yourself. aiannocent children to parents who smoke are at risk as well as people in public that are exsposed to second hand smoke. There is nothing I hate more than having walk by smokers standing on the outside of a building, hospital or resturaunt and I have to walk through a cloud of second hand smoke or in a resturaunt that has a non smoking area but the smoke from a person tables away interfers with my comfort and the fresh air I am now no longer able to breath. Smoking sould be banded from all public areas inside and out and should be limited to your own personal space away from others.
smoking will kill and it will kill super fast so if you smoke stop cuz this can be your last day alive if you dont oh yeah im eleven
I am reading this sitting here in a hospital room on 90% oxygen taking breathing treatments every 2 hrs. I am 45 years old, I have advanced emphysema and copd. I am coughing up mucus that is like rubber cement. I have been smoking since I was 14 so that is 31 years. I am going to die because of these smokes....please people I beg of you with all the life I have left. Please quit smoking....oh please quit.
Smoker, My heart goes out to you. My mother died a slow death from emphysema. It is great that you posted on here in the condition you're in. Hopefully, we can abolish these deadly weapons (yes, they are weapons in my opinion). Trev
What people dont understand is look around you and stop picking one thing to complain about. Seriously cars... no they havent done anything to our health by walking around with those fumes in the air. I dont know hair spray, chemicals in the foods and water. Things becoming so sanitized in everyday life you dont gain a immunity. So its OH NO SMOKING, but nothing about everything else that has contributed to an obvious growing number of deaths since there is a linear growth of birth and outstanding amount of things that kill us every second were here... so get over it and just so you know for all the people who are annoyed by smokers better watch out the big bad cloud of cig smoke mixed in with your oh so clean air might make you explode lol
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Never said it wasnt a problem but I mean are we splitting hairs, picking sides or trying to achieve a further understanding that we kill ourselves regardless? lol
My mother is battling lung disease right now. She has a smoker’s lungs, but she never smoked a day in her life. Plenty of people around her did, though, and their selfish stupidity landed her in one nasty fix.
It makes me furious to see smokers claiming that their choices don’t harm anyone else. Wake up, you morons: You’re killing your fellow man every time you light up. There is no reason for you to keep smoking. You are a human being, and you are intelligent enough to overcome addiction. People do it all the time. Now get to it before you kill someone else. (That goes for the alcoholics, too…you’re just as bad as the chimneys.)
And the second-hand effect of your obesity is killing me! And your traitorous use of illegal drugs is killing all of us.
I'm an RN and work in a hospital and if you got COPD its cause you smoked. There isn't no second hand about it. This is complete BS!
You're wrong to say that people don't develop illness due to exposure to second-hand smoke. For example, do you think the waitstaff in a restaurant that allows smoking, who have to breath that smoke in all day long, aren't at risk? Of course they are. They don't have to be smokers; they just have to desperate enough for a job and willing to work there. And that is just one example.
@Greg– Thank you *so* much for calling my 82 year old mother a liar. I'll be sure to tell her the next time I visit her in the home. You see, I can tell her your good words because her Alzheimer's is advancing swiftly, due to her lifetime of illness (from the freakin' second hand smoke). I'm sure, before she totally forgets our conversation, she'll point up to ME that surely *I* must be lying - NO ONE would claim to be an RN and spout such stupidity. What gives, Greg? Did you miss a few classes? Musta been outside suckin' on the ol' coffin nail.
Second hand smoke not only kills, it maims, cripples and leaves orphans behind. And it's one act of murder *totally* preventable. Want to cut the second hand smoke deaths? Put down the damn cigarette. It's. That. Simple.
Again, thanks for laughing at my mother's 50 years of hell from friends and family who "just wanted their freedom to fill their lungs (and the lungs of everyone else) with poison".
Please tell me what hospital would employ a "caring" person like yourself in such an important job - I'd like to avoid *your* nursing care at all costs. And I truly hope when your time comes, that YOUR RN didn't skip out on THEIR classes.
If you spent as much time finding a cure for copd as you do whining, then we would all be in good shape
Did it ever enter your mind that your mom's illnesses could have been caused by anything other than second hand smoke? If second hand smoke caused all her problems, why would not EVERYONE that was exposed to it have the exact same problems? There are lots of bad chemicals in the world... in the 50s they used to spray pools with kids in them with DDT to prevent mosquitoes, lots of bad stuff out there that has nothing to do with secondhand smoke.I feel bad for you and what you are going through and of course you want to blame someone but that is not going to make her better and it is not going to help you either.
One more thing before I leave you... My husband used to do award-winning upholstery. He replaced MANY car headliners. But NOT ONCE did he replace the headliner of a non-smoker. He tells me the cigarette smoke separates the lining from the glue. Disintegrates it. Literally - Eats. It. Up. And people want to put this crap into their lungs and the lungs of people they care about??? I really can't figure this out.
So, if killing your children and beloved pets isn't enough to make you quit - then - People - do it for your precious cars!!!
And before "Dr. Gregory House" pipes up with his vast medical knowledge: Yes. My husband attended ALL of his upholstery classes. And no - He WON'T replace YOUR headliner.
With all we know about smoking and it's long term effects, how is it that some highly educated people still smoke? Yes, there are those who smoked their whole lives and never developed cancer. But what about those around them that did?
My parents both smoked when I was a kid (dad 2 packs a day, mom 1 pack a day). We lived in a northern state bordering Canada. The windows were closed both in the house and in the car during winter. If I develop cancer late in life, could it be due to the excessive haze I was exposed to as a child? Our house was literally a haze in winter.
Unlike some I don't blame the tobacco industry. My mom was a nurse who most assuredly knew better.
World population 6,000,000,000
Average life span 70 years ? (include developing countries)
So average deaths per year is 6 bil / 70 = about 86,000,000
At "1 in 100", the 2nd hand smoke deaths would be 86,000,000 /100 = 860,000
Not all that far off from the "600,000" ...
They should study what pesticides does to the body
My mother died of emphysema many years ago due to smoking. I was around smokers my entire life, and fortunately didn't suffer too much for it. I myself was a former smoker and realize just how addictive this drug is. What amazes me is that our government spends so much time trying to bust "potheads," but has demonstrated little concern over the years for this public crisis created by smoking. I think we should investigate the tobacco companies in depth to see just how deceptive and manipulative they are in regards to their production of these deadly things called cigarettes.
I read a similar article on another web-site about these findings. Here's the gist of it:
[QUOTE}
In the first look at the global impact of secondhand smoking, researchers analyzed data from 2004 for 192 countries. They found 40 percent of children and more than 30 percent of non-smoking men and women regularly breathe in secondhand smoke.
Scientists then estimated that passive smoking causes about 379,000 deaths from heart disease, 165,000 deaths from lower respiratory disease, 36,900 deaths from asthma and 21,400 deaths from lung cancer a year.
[END QUOTE]
The only thing that appears to be fact-based is the number of people exposed to second-hand smoke. Then the doctors ESTIMATED how many deaths they THINK this causes. Like a previous poster mentioned, there are many more causes to respiratory issues than just second hand smoke. As stated, certain countries are environmental disasters, with no control on factory emissions, open burning of forests, no emission control systems on vehicles, etc... Yet the anti-smoking zealots want to pin all lung-related issues on second-hand smoke.
And for the record, I am not a smoker. I do enjoy a cigar once in a while, but have have never smoked cigarettes. Interestingly enough, both of my parents smoked, yet neither myself or any of my three siblings appeared to have suffered from this. In my case, I had perfect attendance for 7 of my 12 years of public education. Doesn't sound like that affected me much, did it ??
oh my gawd!!!!
Don't worry gang I will put a stop to this!!!
Most worry about the smoke from burning snuff, the real problem is addiction to nicotine and produces toxins that are abundant, the same that cause long term damage. It also depends on the age of onset of addiction, number of cigarettes smoked per day, dietary factors of the (junk food, soft drinks etc) is fully modifiable environmental factors. Prime remind you that any human cell components requires the combustion of snuff to live, is choking, weakened, irritated PERMANENTLY, consume nutrients and for s the same over time degenerate and transforms.
This is true is the smoke is coming from a nuclear reactor! This is just Stupid media!
Hi, all!
Just wanted to pop up from down below and say how proud I am of all American followers and true believers out there! I cannot explain the extent of my joy from seeing so much enthusiasm for the War on Smoking. Sieg heil! I never dreamed the National Socialism would reach America by the voice of its own people. But look! You have everything covered–a proud, healthy media serving the interest of the state and an industry of science that does the same. Seig heil!
I never even dreamed of having as much success banning "the wrath of the Red Man against the White Man" during the reign of the Third Reich! But look at you all! I'm so jealous! You Americans are living the dream that I failed to realize! Oh, what joy it is to me to see so many loyal, passionate American volk campaign fiercely against the dangerous, unhealthy evils of Passivrauchen (that is, what in English you call "passive smoke").
Congratulations, America. You have proven your dedication to the ideal of a strong, healthy nation state. And to those of you few resisters out there, I have some messages for you too: Your Health Is Not a Private Matter! Stop smoking now or you will face the full force and strength of the proud American volk! Do not be weak! It is a filthy habit for deviants, misfits and reprobates! Stop smoking-if not for yourself-then for your fellow Americans' health! Now! Or else...
I must return now, America. Again, I am so proud of you. For letting me speak, I say Danke shon!
Seig heil!
Seig heil!
Seig heil!
It is insulting that you even let someone put such an insulting comment on this website. I am a 93 year old great grandma who lives through hitler reign, and I would be elated if it would be removed from this site immediately.
I was curious about the stats that my state's health department had been posting on TV adds, proclaiming that one person dies around every 5 or 6 seconds or so from smoking and smoking related issues. I contacted my state health department and asked for the data that their claims were based on and supporting evidence. What surprised me is that they told me that they didn't do the research, they just copied the information posted by the WHO. I then contacted WHO and asked for the same information. It has been quite some time since that request and they will not respond to my request. Are they cooking the books by fabricating the numbers they and apparently other agencies are reporting as fact? This sounds familiar. It reminds me of the global warming issued and when it was learned that some of the ideological based proponents had cooked the books a little bit when they made their claims. Most people know that smoking is not good for you, but I find it disconcerting that it looks like they are hiding something or fabricating numbers to get their point across. And, No I don't smoke cigarettes, never have and never will.
No-one cares!!!
My dad was a smoker. He quit when I was born.
He tells the story of someone that once said if you want to smoke, let me introduce you to the exhaust system of my car..
One in one hundred people die from second hand smoke each year? That would be 10,000,000 deaths per year, not 600,000. I'm a former smoker but I am still astonished at the way people play fast and loose with statistics when it comes to smoking. Obviously Miriam Falco's background isn't in statistics. But it makes a great opening line for a post, which will no doubt be copied, posted and quoted all over the web. What a maroon.
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my parents are devorsed but my dad smoked, whenever I went on holiay to visit him, my mother made me where special chothing right down to the trousers, when ever I was Returned, my mother made me change out of deightfully good cothes just becaue they smelled of smoke and tar. My father quit smokeing, took him more than a fortnight, but he's still haveing moody days. Chero for my father
So I've spent the last few hours researching the furthest corners of most name able search engines and have found one thing to be true. Second hand smoke is a myth for anyone older than 18. It is definitely fact that young developing lungs, eyes, ears, throats are Susceptible to harm from second hand smoke in large doses but nothin has been said indefinitely about adults. This site claims 600,000 people world wide die from second hand smoke. CNN is notoriously known for being liberal biased . No study's done just biased opinionated crap. Fox's main website claims exactly the same but they're notoriously republican biased . Both sides claim the same exact number. Then when I venture out to other sites and what they're site says its a completely different number. I've even tried European web sites and they don't have any real hard facts or evidences of truth behind second hand smoke killing. There are claims of " O tobacco related deaths " but that's not a real hard facts about second hand smoke either because, "tobacco related" just means simply that tobacco was the cause of death or was involved with the death. If a guy was driving along on the highway and then Went to light a cigarette or put in some chewing tobacco then crashes and dies isn't that considered a tobacco related death?? Tobacco was involved. It was the involved in the death . So whose stat is for real? Therein lies the myriad of logical thought processes I've scaled to ask myself, " is second hand smoke really a killer? " I've worked In construction for the better part of a decade now, smokers and chewers a-plenty, and never one that I have asked or talked to that has had, or even heard of anyone dying from second hand smoke. Smokers here in California get extremely taxed for something that costs less that a buck to make. Some places like in New York for example are paying up to 10$ just for a pack of cigarettes when in the same lifetime remembers paying 3,4, maybe 5 bucks a pack. Is it right to lay down these phony numbers and super tax these Americans without any real legwork being done? Ya it's a bit dirty, your touching things with your hands all day then you sucking on a cigarette where your fingers just touched. Ya it stinks up a place pretty good. Ya it bugs non smokers cause they have twice the taste and smelling power than smokers do sure, but is it right to punch average hard working joes in they're wallets just because others don't like it? Isn't that what America was founded on? Being able to do what you believe in or would like to do within means of sanity and brotherhood of mankind? And where does all this 400%, 500% marked up taxes go? Somehow were all in debt but millions of people a day keep buy grossly overtaxed cigarettes to feed there addiction everyday? I grew up on one major moral fiber, American saying and it goes like this, "I may not agree or believe in what you do my fellow American but I will Fight and DIE for your RIGHT to do so". To this day I hold that close to my heart and no matter what , young , old , veteran , hippie, liberal, conservative, republican, democrat, it doesn't matter who I meet or talk too we all agree happily on this saying. After all its called The UNITED States of America , Not The DIVIDED States of America. I just hope that one day we'll wake up and realize this big beautiful country was founded by ALL of our four fathers and no one group should be singled out and punished over a freedom that others may not agree with. Well that was my Spiel. Thanks for reading.
Can we actually stop smoking? Are we that "wise" or not?
http://www.lifepopper.com/stop-killing-yourself/
Many smokers do not realize how dangerous secondhand smoke really is. Non-smokers who inhale secondhand smoke are breathing in toxic chemicals and carcinogens which put non-smokers at higher risk for cancer and cardiovascular disease which can lead to premature death. Infants and children whose parents smoke in the house and/or car tend to be sick more often, they develop asthma and have more asthma attacks than a child who is not exposed to secondhand smoke. Children exposed to secondhand smoke also develop ear infections and bronchitis. Smokers need to be more informed of the dangers secondhand smoke has on non-smokers and parents need to be aware of their children's environment since children can not usually remove themselves from the situation.
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So 1 in 100 people die of second-hand smoke every year? In a population of seven billion, that should equal 70 million people. But apparently you guys think that equals 600,000 people? That's ridiculous; 70 million deaths would mean that second hand smoke is as harmful as World War II. CNN is officially a joke. You're better off getting your news from a wet carrot.
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seriously if you consider all the factory smoke in this country with car co2...you want to talk about what really cause death .... maybe you should direct you attention there .... for the starter ! just my opinion ..not saying tobacco is good to be around but cover the whole field ...stop selling a one problem......
That is the very best search system in the world
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I'm surprised no one has yet mention vape pens, or e-cigs. It's a much cleaner version of getting that puff-puff nicotine fix, while not polluting the air with so many carcinogens.
I'm just starting to use them to quit smoking, and plan to wean myself off the vape pen. I'm currently using a JUUL, and fill the cartridges with a glycol-based nicotine extract.
In my town (San Francisco Bay Area), there are signs around on the street saying "No Smoking." A lot of people around here vape instead of smoke. It's certainly not nearly as smelly, and has no tar in it. Also, no ash, and no butts (for the eco-conscious).
Does anyone know of comparative studies from smoking to vaping and how it affects first-hand and second-hand? I would be curious...
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